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Originally Posted by Sam b
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12-05-2017 02:15 PM
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for replying. Yes, I understand that those notes are all part of the Bb major scale. I guess I was thinking that if you're playing the 1, 3, and 5 of a different chord then maybe you've moved on to a different shape/center. It's like something said in an earlier post, Mark - that the shape shows you your anchor notes. So if you're playing the 1 3 5 of the C- chord haven't your anchor notes changed?
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Originally Posted by Sam b
Let me think about this and get back to you. I get what you're saying; I'm not yet sure how to say what I want to say. Arpeggios are not the same thing as shapes (in the sense of "shape" here.) Later, in Herb's "All the Shapes You Are" you will learn lots of "vamps" over a single chord that is tied to one of the handful of shapes Herb used. But that's not so important here. All of the "A" section of Rhythm Changes is in Bb---you can throw some V7 in there for motion--but the progression is not leading the ear in the same way.
Contrast the melody / riff of "I Got Rhythm" (or "Lester Leaps In" or "Cottontail") with the melody of "All the Things You Are." Very different circumstances. The main thing in "rhythm shapes" is to learn the lines and sense the shapes while playing.
It might help to take a line from one shape and play it in another---same notes but the fingering will be different---you'll be in a different 'shape' and you'll realize what that means in a deeper way.
In general, you can play all the arpeggios you need (for a diatonic progression in a major key) in one position, the I the ii the iii the IV the V7 the vi and the vii. It's good to be able to do that. But it's not exactly what Herb is doing here.
Does that make sense?
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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"All of the "A" section of Rhythm Changes is in Bb---you can throw some V7 in there for motion--but the progression is not leading the ear in the same way."
I think this helps. You're saying that in the A section, even though the harmony is moving and you're playing different arpeggios, you're really sticking to Bb so you don't think of it changing shapes. Is that it?
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Originally Posted by Sam b
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Lawson makes a good point here but don't worry if you're unsure what to make of it. You might want to look at some of Herb's 8-bar A section phrases and see how he uses the Ab note in measures 5 & 6 (and also measure 4, as Herb often anticipates a change by a beat or two). But the main thing is to learn the lines. They're good lines. Learn then, play them, find out which ones you like best, string a few together in a solo and see how that sounds to you.
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Anyone still here?
I just finished a private lesson with Frank Vignola (via TrueFire) and he suggested I make my own play-alongs for tunes I'm learning, just the guitar and a metronome. So I'm starting to do that.
It's the first thing Herb recommends too: make a backing tape (slow, medium, and fast takes) and play over it. I never did that. (What a maroon, right?) So now I'm going to. Should post the results here.
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Think Howard Roberts says the same thing in his book.
Enjoy
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Originally Posted by gggomez
Also you can choose your tempos. (Herb Ellis suggested slow, medium, and fast versions of blues comps to practice over.)
I made a 3-chorus comp last night. The metronome is too loud, so I'll move it next time, but it's a good thing to play over. Using the 'voice memo' function on my iPhone so it's super easy, a small file, and it can be named for quick access later.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by gggomez
Reminds me of some advice I got from a drummer: "Play a 12 bar blues, just the changes, very basic, for five minutes. Every day. Set a timer. You learn to keep time by keeping time for a long time. When your time is solid, the simplest things sound good. When your timing is off, nothing you can do will sound good."
Might get a looper later but for now, I'm sticking with this approach. I think it's best for me. YMMV.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
To practice playing the chords in rhythm I use Aebersold recordings playing only the bass\drum track. If I could get only a bass track that would be even better since the drums provide too much 'guidance'.
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
You know, Carol Kaye put out two CDs, Standards I and Standards II. She plays two tracks for about 20 standards. The first track is a metronome and a bass. The second track (for the same tune) is rhythm guitar. The bass tracks are not as easy to fall in with as I had thought. But it is a chance to 'play along' with a great bassist playing like she would play on a gig.
I have several Aebersold play-alongs and enjoy them. Haven't worked with them lately but I'll get back to them in due time. There are several volumes with an organ trio setting, which is a lot of fun.
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Originally Posted by Doublea A
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It's rained all weekend and perhaps that's why this sounds, um, drippy in a way I did not intend. ;o)
Lots of clams and I rushed at the end, but I need a recording of some sort so that I look back "ages and ages hence", as Robert Frost put it, and say, I kept at it since and now can hear "that has made all the difference."
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I'm back in Herb's books. "Rhythm Shapes" lately, playing several of this 8-bar phrases every day. The lines sound better to me (when I play them) than they did last time round. I've gotten a wee bit better!
My current laptop has only one functiong USB port. My girlfriend told me to put off buying another and she'd give me one for my birthday. (Early October.) Between now and then, I want to work on this stuff and then start making videos about Herb's "method" and his books.
If nothing else, it will be a record of where I am with this material right now.
It may help a few others, or interest a few others in making their own way through Herb's material. I do think it's some of the best material available on playing jazz guitar (-at least, jazz guitar of the sort I love).
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Let's define what is a "shape"?
For example, "Shape 1" on page 2 of his Swing Blues book shows:
Shape 1:
"C Major Chord" (4 notes in total)
"C Major Arpeggio" (7 notes in total)
"C Major Scale" (15 notes in total)
"C Dominant 7th Arpeggio" (9 notes in total)
"C Dominant 7th Scale" (15 notes in total)
So, when we say "shape 1" are we talking about seeing the "C Major Chord (4 notes in total)"?
Or, when we say "shape 1" are we talking about seeing both the "C Major Chord" (4 notes in total) and the "C Major Arpeggio" (7 notes in total)?
Or, perhaps when we say "shape 1" do we mean seeing all of the five cases above (seeing 15 notes plus the b7 variations) ?
------------------------------Last edited by rintincop; 10-03-2018 at 05:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by rintincop
What matters is you know what you mean by them.
The shape is not the same thing as the arpeggio. They are the "grips". Triads, mostly.
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So, if I understand you correctly, Shape 1 on page 2 of the Swing Blues book is simply:
Shape 1 is "C Major Chord" (4 notes in total) PERIOD.
Thus, each of the following are what Herb Ellis considers the important extensions of "Shape 1"
"C Major Arpeggio" (7 notes in total)
"C Major Scale" (15 notes in total)
"C Dominant 7th Arpeggio" (9 notes in total)
"C Dominant 7th Scale" (15 notes in total)
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Originally Posted by rintincop
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Getting motivated to give these books another go.....I learned most of Blues in C before and have since forgotten some parts of it but more importantly, incorporated a couple of lines into my general blues playing, now I want more. Worth going for ATTYA without finishing the Swing book or is that built on lines/shapes that I should learn first from the Swing book?
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Originally Posted by odel
I'm getting back into this too. Have serious medical issues in the family, so my practice time is curtailed, but I'll be back at it asap. ;o)
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
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