The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #351

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam b

    However as I get into the Rhythm Changes book, I'm having a hard time seeing how the shape is really at the root of his solos.

    For instance, the book starts out with a bunch of examples over the A part and says that Herb is playing out of the first shape for the first 8 bars.

    In my mind, and maybe this is where I go wrong, that means he would be kind of sticking around B flat, playing B flat arpeggios and major scale, kind of how he does in the blues book.

    But looking at what he's doing, it looks like he's following the harmony - he's playing C-, F, Bb arpeggios in a way that to my mind would imply he's playing out of more than one shape. At that point is the really just playing that one shape or is something more complicated going on there? Feels like 3 shapes or more.... If someone can help make me make sense of this, I'd really appreciate it.
    In any one shape, many arpeggios may be found. Playing the C- arp out of "shape 1" doesn't mean that Herb has changed shapes; all the notes of C- arpeggio---C, Eb, G, Bb--- are in the Bb major scale: Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A. Same for F7--F, A, C, Eb. Does that make sense?

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  3. #352

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    Hi Mark,

    Thanks for replying. Yes, I understand that those notes are all part of the Bb major scale. I guess I was thinking that if you're playing the 1, 3, and 5 of a different chord then maybe you've moved on to a different shape/center. It's like something said in an earlier post, Mark - that the shape shows you your anchor notes. So if you're playing the 1 3 5 of the C- chord haven't your anchor notes changed?

  4. #353

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam b
    Hi Mark,

    Thanks for replying. Yes, I understand that those notes are all part of the Bb major scale. I guess I was thinking that if you're playing the 1, 3, and 5 of a different chord then maybe you've moved on to a different shape/center. It's like something said in an earlier post, Mark - that the shape shows you your anchor notes. So if you're playing the 1 3 5 of the C- chord haven't your anchor notes changed?

    Let me think about this and get back to you. I get what you're saying; I'm not yet sure how to say what I want to say. Arpeggios are not the same thing as shapes (in the sense of "shape" here.) Later, in Herb's "All the Shapes You Are" you will learn lots of "vamps" over a single chord that is tied to one of the handful of shapes Herb used. But that's not so important here. All of the "A" section of Rhythm Changes is in Bb---you can throw some V7 in there for motion--but the progression is not leading the ear in the same way.

    Contrast the melody / riff of "I Got Rhythm" (or "Lester Leaps In" or "Cottontail") with the melody of "All the Things You Are." Very different circumstances. The main thing in "rhythm shapes" is to learn the lines and sense the shapes while playing.

    It might help to take a line from one shape and play it in another---same notes but the fingering will be different---you'll be in a different 'shape' and you'll realize what that means in a deeper way.

    In general, you can play all the arpeggios you need (for a diatonic progression in a major key) in one position, the I the ii the iii the IV the V7 the vi and the vii. It's good to be able to do that. But it's not exactly what Herb is doing here.

    Does that make sense?

  5. #354

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    In any one shape, many arpeggios may be found. Playing the C- arp out of "shape 1" doesn't mean that Herb has changed shapes; all the notes of C- arpeggio---C, Eb, G, Bb--- are in the Bb major scale: Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A. Same for F7--F, A, C, Eb. Does that make sense?
    Hi Mark, it's nice to see you back here.

  6. #355

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    "All of the "A" section of Rhythm Changes is in Bb---you can throw some V7 in there for motion--but the progression is not leading the ear in the same way."

    I think this helps. You're saying that in the A section, even though the harmony is moving and you're playing different arpeggios, you're really sticking to Bb so you don't think of it changing shapes. Is that it?

  7. #356

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam b
    "All of the "A" section of Rhythm Changes is in Bb---you can throw some V7 in there for motion--but the progression is not leading the ear in the same way."

    I think this helps. You're saying that in the A section, even though the harmony is moving and you're playing different arpeggios, you're really sticking to Bb so you don't think of it changing shapes. Is that it?
    I'm not in this group, but have been working on a Rhythm Changes solo in the Jimmy Raney group. One thing you should look out for in the A section is measures 5-6 when you transition to the IV chord, going basically Bb7 to Eb, the critical guide tone, the Ab (b7 of Bb) lies outside the major scale, but is essential to capturing the moment of the harmony. Otherwise, the A section is basically all Bb, but if you don't nail that movement to the IV chord in mm 5-6, it will hurt. A lot.

  8. #357

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I'm not in this group, but have been working on a Rhythm Changes solo in the Jimmy Raney group. One thing you should look out for in the A section is measures 5-6 when you transition to the IV chord, going basically Bb7 to Eb, the critical guide tone, the Ab (b7 of Bb) lies outside the major scale, but is essential to capturing the moment of the harmony. Otherwise, the A section is basically all Bb, but if you don't nail that movement to the IV chord in mm 5-6, it will hurt. A lot.

    Lawson makes a good point here but don't worry if you're unsure what to make of it. You might want to look at some of Herb's 8-bar A section phrases and see how he uses the Ab note in measures 5 & 6 (and also measure 4, as Herb often anticipates a change by a beat or two). But the main thing is to learn the lines. They're good lines. Learn then, play them, find out which ones you like best, string a few together in a solo and see how that sounds to you.

  9. #358

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    Anyone still here?

    I just finished a private lesson with Frank Vignola (via TrueFire) and he suggested I make my own play-alongs for tunes I'm learning, just the guitar and a metronome. So I'm starting to do that.

    It's the first thing Herb recommends too: make a backing tape (slow, medium, and fast takes) and play over it. I never did that. (What a maroon, right?) So now I'm going to. Should post the results here.

  10. #359

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    Think Howard Roberts says the same thing in his book.

    Enjoy

  11. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    Think Howard Roberts says the same thing in his book.

    Enjoy
    I think you're right. In the "olden days" one would use a cassette recorder. (I had one when I was a kid, and later a 4-track recorder, which was also cassette). Tapes hiss and gradually slip, so I understand the appeal of CD play-alongs. (And I still have several and find them useful for some things.) But especially for guitar, it's good to play chorus-after-chorus of rhythm just to build up endurance, solidify timing, and smooth out any glitches in one's technique.

    Also you can choose your tempos. (Herb Ellis suggested slow, medium, and fast versions of blues comps to practice over.)

    I made a 3-chorus comp last night. The metronome is too loud, so I'll move it next time, but it's a good thing to play over. Using the 'voice memo' function on my iPhone so it's super easy, a small file, and it can be named for quick access later.

  12. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I think you're right. In the "olden days" one would use a cassette recorder. (I had one when I was a kid, and later a 4-track recorder, which was also cassette). Tapes hiss and gradually slip, so I understand the appeal of CD play-alongs. (And I still have several and find them useful for some things.) But especially for guitar, it's good to play chorus-after-chorus of rhythm just to build up endurance, solidify timing, and smooth out any glitches in one's technique.

    Also you can choose your tempos. (Herb Ellis suggested slow, medium, and fast versions of blues comps to practice over.)

    I made a 3-chorus comp last night. The metronome is too loud, so I'll move it next time, but it's a good thing to play over. Using the 'voice memo' function on my iPhone so it's super easy, a small file, and it can be named for quick access later.
    Ditto Looper such a great practice tool.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #362

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    Ditto Looper such a great practice tool.
    I talked to Frank Vignola about that and he said that although loopers have their uses, he doesn't recommend them for this.

    Reminds me of some advice I got from a drummer: "Play a 12 bar blues, just the changes, very basic, for five minutes. Every day. Set a timer. You learn to keep time by keeping time for a long time. When your time is solid, the simplest things sound good. When your timing is off, nothing you can do will sound good."

    Might get a looper later but for now, I'm sticking with this approach. I think it's best for me. YMMV.

  14. #363

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I talked to Frank Vignola about that and he said that although loopers have their uses, he doesn't recommend them for this.

    Reminds me of some advice I got from a drummer: "Play a 12 bar blues, just the changes, very basic, for five minutes. Every day. Set a timer. You learn to keep time by keeping time for a long time. When your time is solid, the simplest things sound good. When your timing is off, nothing you can do will sound good."

    Might get a looper later but for now, I'm sticking with this approach. I think it's best for me. YMMV.
    I usually agree with everything that Frank says but I will have to disagree with this one. My looper has strengthened my rhythm chops considerably.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  15. #364

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I talked to Frank Vignola about that and he said that although loopers have their uses, he doesn't recommend them for this.

    Reminds me of some advice I got from a drummer: "Play a 12 bar blues, just the changes, very basic, for five minutes. Every day. Set a timer. You learn to keep time by keeping time for a long time. When your time is solid, the simplest things sound good. When your timing is off, nothing you can do will sound good."

    Might get a looper later but for now, I'm sticking with this approach. I think it's best for me. YMMV.
    My looper has a click rhythm (e.g. clicks on 'one') and this can be set to work just like a metronome. So I see no difference between recording oneself playing the chords with a metronome and using the looper just with a click track. But I use this to practice soloing (playing over the changes).

    To practice playing the chords in rhythm I use Aebersold recordings playing only the bass\drum track. If I could get only a bass track that would be even better since the drums provide too much 'guidance'.

  16. #365

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    My looper has a click rhythm (e.g. clicks on 'one') and this can be set to work just like a metronome. So I see no difference between recording oneself playing the chords with a metronome and using the looper just with a click track. But I use this to practice soloing (playing over the changes).

    To practice playing the chords in rhythm I use Aebersold recordings playing only the bass\drum track. If I could get only a bass track that would be even better since the drums provide too much 'guidance'.

    You know, Carol Kaye put out two CDs, Standards I and Standards II. She plays two tracks for about 20 standards. The first track is a metronome and a bass. The second track (for the same tune) is rhythm guitar. The bass tracks are not as easy to fall in with as I had thought. But it is a chance to 'play along' with a great bassist playing like she would play on a gig.

    I have several Aebersold play-alongs and enjoy them. Haven't worked with them lately but I'll get back to them in due time. There are several volumes with an organ trio setting, which is a lot of fun.

  17. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    I usually agree with everything that Frank says but I will have to disagree with this one. My looper has strengthened my rhythm chops considerably.
    Glad to hear it!

  18. #367

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    It's rained all weekend and perhaps that's why this sounds, um, drippy in a way I did not intend. ;o)
    Lots of clams and I rushed at the end, but I need a recording of some sort so that I look back "ages and ages hence", as Robert Frost put it, and say, I kept at it since and now can hear "that has made all the difference."


  19. #368

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    I'm back in Herb's books. "Rhythm Shapes" lately, playing several of this 8-bar phrases every day. The lines sound better to me (when I play them) than they did last time round. I've gotten a wee bit better!

    My current laptop has only one functiong USB port. My girlfriend told me to put off buying another and she'd give me one for my birthday. (Early October.) Between now and then, I want to work on this stuff and then start making videos about Herb's "method" and his books.

    If nothing else, it will be a record of where I am with this material right now.
    It may help a few others, or interest a few others in making their own way through Herb's material. I do think it's some of the best material available on playing jazz guitar (-at least, jazz guitar of the sort I love).

  20. #369

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Let me think about this and get back to you. I get what you're saying; I'm not yet sure how to say what I want to say. Arpeggios are not the same thing as shapes (in the sense of "shape" here.) Later, in Herb's "All the Shapes You Are" you will learn lots of "vamps" over a single chord that is tied to one of the handful of shapes Herb used. But that's not so important here. All of the "A" section of Rhythm Changes is in Bb---you can throw some V7 in there for motion--but the progression is not leading the ear in the same way.

    Contrast the melody / riff of "I Got Rhythm" (or "Lester Leaps In" or "Cottontail") with the melody of "All the Things You Are." Very different circumstances. The main thing in "rhythm shapes" is to learn the lines and sense the shapes while playing.

    It might help to take a line from one shape and play it in another---same notes but the fingering will be different---you'll be in a different 'shape' and you'll realize what that means in a deeper way.

    In general, you can play all the arpeggios you need (for a diatonic progression in a major key) in one position, the I the ii the iii the IV the V7 the vi and the vii. It's good to be able to do that. But it's not exactly what Herb is doing here.

    Does that make sense?
    I think the nomenclature in the Herb Ellis "shape" method is unclear.

    Let's define what is a "shape"?

    For example, "Shape 1" on page 2 of his Swing Blues book shows:

    Shape 1:
    "C Major Chord" (4 notes in total)
    "C Major Arpeggio" (7 notes in total)
    "C Major Scale" (15 notes in total)
    "C Dominant 7th Arpeggio" (9 notes in total)
    "C Dominant 7th Scale" (15 notes in total)

    So, when we say "shape 1" are we talking about seeing the "C Major Chord (4 notes in total)"?
    Or, when we say "shape 1" are we talking about seeing both the "C Major Chord" (4 notes in total) and the "C Major Arpeggio" (7 notes in total)?
    Or, perhaps when we say "shape 1" do we mean seeing all of the five cases above (seeing 15 notes plus the b7 variations) ?

    ------------------------------
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-03-2018 at 05:37 PM.

  21. #370

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I think the nomenclature in the Herb Ellis "shape" method is unclear.
    It varied. He said somewhere he didn't care what students called the shapes. (Some people might relate them to CAGED shapes, for example. Fred Sokolow's "Fretboard Roadmaps" use three shapes, he calls them F, D, and A. They're the same shapes.)

    What matters is you know what you mean by them.

    The shape is not the same thing as the arpeggio. They are the "grips". Triads, mostly.

  22. #371

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    So, if I understand you correctly, Shape 1 on page 2 of the Swing Blues book is simply:

    Shape 1 is "C Major Chord" (4 notes in total) PERIOD.

    Thus, each of the following are what Herb Ellis considers the important extensions of "Shape 1"

    "C Major Arpeggio" (7 notes in total)
    "C Major Scale" (15 notes in total)
    "C Dominant 7th Arpeggio" (9 notes in total)
    "C Dominant 7th Scale" (15 notes in total)

  23. #372

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    So, if I understand you correctly, Shape 1 on page 2 of the Swing Blues book is simply:

    Shape 1 is "C Major Chord" (4 notes in total) PERIOD.
    Yes, that is the SHAPE. The key is to relate melodic ideas to shapes. This should become clearer as you learn some of the lines in the book.

  24. #373

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    Getting motivated to give these books another go.....I learned most of Blues in C before and have since forgotten some parts of it but more importantly, incorporated a couple of lines into my general blues playing, now I want more. Worth going for ATTYA without finishing the Swing book or is that built on lines/shapes that I should learn first from the Swing book?

  25. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by odel
    Getting motivated to give these books another go.....I learned most of Blues in C before and have since forgotten some parts of it but more importantly, incorporated a couple of lines into my general blues playing, now I want more. Worth going for ATTYA without finishing the Swing book or is that built on lines/shapes that I should learn first from the Swing book?
    The books are independent. ATTYA has more shapes and the the sample lines can be quite long. (Three 32-bar choruses at the end.) You don't have to finish "Swing Blues" to do it, or start it.

    I'm getting back into this too. Have serious medical issues in the family, so my practice time is curtailed, but I'll be back at it asap. ;o)

  26. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I won't highjack this thread, but I still don't understand what the Bb "shape" has to do with what is played in this example. I'll work through a few more and see if it clicks with me. Thanks for your help.
    The shapes are visual references. You relate the melodic material (the actual lines) to the shapes, so that you may use them wherever you are on the neck.