Why use D Dorian and G Mixolydian over Cmaj

[mr. beaumont]

I use chord tones/arpeggios on autumn leaves...for the most part...I also play some harmonic minor lines over the minor ii V's...

the biggest thing is to actually train your brain not to think "I play this OVER this..." That seperates your melodic line (your improv) from the harmony...you want to see it simultaneously, as a big pool of available notes...

This is why I advocate so strongly to beginners to spend time in the shed with arpeggios...then, the notes available in improv ARE the chords...it's like little lights go off whenever the chord changes...you see groups of notes you can grab as a chord, or play independently to create a melodic line...

Of course, all of this has to be practiced to the point where it just "happens." there's no time to think about anything in the moment...you think, you're dead...the thinking happens in the practice room...

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

Yep - that's me.

I'm pretty good on which mode to play over which chords, but grabbing them quickly over multiple changes...um...major lag leading to a train/brain wreck.

I think I need to do some more studying and listening to get a better grasp of what to use when. I'm not very good on decerning styles and what constructs make them sound unique. Autumn Leaves for example - should I be sticking to chord tones, playing modes over the changes...major or minor modes? What's safest?

So much to learn...good thing I'm digging it!

You will find as your ear and your playing develop and catch up with each other, as well as with what you are learning about theory, that the standard usage of scales becomes a much different thing than what you are used to. As we develop vocabulary, even if it is by starting to play sequences from a book, We start to see that there are snippets of this scale and snippets of that one, mixed with arps, non sequential chord tones and chromatic's. This is an enlightening revelation, at least it was for me. That is why I agree with the aforementioned advice of using arps and chord tones right away. Though you can get by with playing key centers, modes are just that, though they are accenting different tensions within the parent key, but you will benefit far more from the mixing of these ideas as stated.


Autumn Leaves? Play it just the way we have been talking about. See what happens.

[onetruevibe]

Thanks guys - that's exactly what I needed to hear.

BH - I think know what you're saying about the "revelation." I kind of happened to me when I was dialing in the major scale in all the positions...I started to see them all as one scale, and I could button two positions together - play notes that overlapped two positions and making a lick out of it.

Anyway, like you guys said, I just need to keep playing...so looking forward to that moment when it clicks!

Peace!

B

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

BH - I think know what you're saying about the "revelation." I kind of happened to me when I was dialing in the major scale in all the positions.

B

I can tell you this, playing Music is full of epiphanies. That is one of things that keeps me going. There is nothing like a true, crucial, AHA!!! moment.

[bako]

There are no such thing as modal fingerings. Starting and ending on each scale note is simply inversions of the scale.
A scale contains multiple harmonic aspects centered around each note.
Calling these aspects modes is misnamed but is in common usage.
Being aware of these harmonic possibilities is part of knowing the scale,
learning to hear the fundamental 7th chord with passing or extension/color tones.

To move to new fingering form for every chord is likely to lead to disjunct melodies.
I believe it is clearer to view the chords as different aspects of the C major.

Sometimes in study we break things down into fragments that allow us to see details about a singular event.
From that viewpoint then a song becomes a sequence of these studied events.
While helpful in practice sessions, this is detrimental to the act of playing music where life is unified and continuous.

There are many models for integrating notes beyond the C major scale and the chord symbols of this progression.
I believe that listening to great players is the best way to begin to make sense of this.
Playing around within the confines of a concept can also be fun and informative, all part of the great learning curve.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by bako

A scale contains multiple harmonic aspects centered around each note.

Right on! Here's Jake's V of V lesson which can be viewed as application of this concept. He doesn't move to new finger forms unnecessarily and gets the maximum from within the confined area of the fretboard:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...titutions.html

[bobby d]

OK, if I play D dorian over CMaj7, I'm really starting on the second note of the C major scale. G mixolydian, I'm starting on the 5th of the C major scale. It's all a matter of starting on a different note of the C Major scale which is OK.

It's just a matter of where you are in your development as a guitarist. If you're new to modes and playing over 2-5-1-6 chord changes, it isn't a bad exercise. But if you're ready to move on to better improvisational ideas, this is limiting.

The difference: Modes can be looked at two ways. E Phrygian is either a very modal minor sound (E min.b9) or simply starting the C major scale on the major 3rd.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by bobby d

OK, if I play D dorian over CMaj7, I'm really starting on the second note of the C major scale. G mixolydian, I'm starting on the 5th of the C major scale. It's all a matter of starting on a different note of the C Major scale which is OK.

It's just a matter of where you are in your development as a guitarist. If you're new to modes and playing over 2-5-1-6 chord changes, it isn't a bad exercise. But if you're ready to move on to better improvisational ideas, this is limiting.

The difference: Modes can be looked at two ways. Phrygian is either a very modal minor sound (E min.b9) or simply starting the C major scale on the major 3rd.

Thanks for the post. If I think hard enough about it, what you said makes sense. I think we're all saying the same thing. However, it is quicker for me in this stage of my development (noob) to identify modal starting points as they relate to the tonal center on the fretboard.

For dorian, I play the major scale starting a tone down from the min7 chord root. For a G-7, play a F Major scale (choosing a position that's closest to your current location on the fretboard to minimize movement).

For mixo on a chord whose root is on the 6th string, I'm going to play the major scale starting on the 5th string fret adjacent to the 6th string chord root.

This is probably overly simplistic (doesn't include note names or intervals), and I may have even explained it incorrectly (please correct me, if so). Reference Justin Guitar...he nailed it for me.

I guess for speed to market, my goal is to first play what sounds good and then learn why second.

Regardless...I'm sticking with arpeggios until I encounter a tune that requires modes...at which point, if I know enough to realize that modes are best for a tune, I'll probably also be able to better understand everything posted above.

[mr. beaumont]

If you just think major scale from a different note, you're not really accounting for the mode's characteristic pitches.

Justinguitar has some good info, particularly for beginners, but his stuff on jazz and theory is pretty simplistic...he really has no business teaching jazz...

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If you just think major scale from a different note, you're not really accounting for the mode's characteristic pitches.

Justinguitar has some good info, particularly for beginners, but his stuff on jazz and theory is pretty simplistic...he really has no business teaching jazz...

Is his stuff incorrect? If so, I'll bail. I spent several months reading site after site (including this one) about modes (because I thought that is where I should start...I know differently now thanks to you guys!), and could never quite get it.

I looked at his simple approach to understanding it and I was like...duh...that's simple enough to get started.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the complexity of these concepts and applaud those who have dedicated their lives to understanding it. I just don't want to bog myself down (right now) with nuance when a simple approaches to application can get me up and running.

But again...I'll be sticking to arpeggios like you guys recommended and will revisit modes when I have the foundation to fully understand what's happening.

You are right Mr. B, when you said "Play some arpeggios and connect chord tones with chromatics...overintellectualizing a major ii V I is the kind of crap that scares people off of jazz" I'm feeling it, trust me.

But I guess such are the pains of learning something new.

Thanks again guys.

[bako]

Originally Posted by bobby d

OK, if I play D dorian over CMaj7, I'm really starting on the second note of the C major scale. G mixolydian, I'm starting on the 5th of the C major scale. It's all a matter of starting on a different note of the C Major scale which is OK.

Not quite right.

Harmony is created by the sum total of all the notes played by the band and not solely by any individual contribution.
The bassist and chord player generally have greater impact on the overall harmony than a single note melody does.
If you play a D note against CMa7, it is heard as a 9th or 2nd in relation to C. It doesn't matter that you believe you are
playing a Dorian fingering, the overall result will be Ionian.

Final reiteration for now, there is no such thing as a modal fingering.
Any one octave fingering of the major scale is all that is needed to imply any of the 7 major scale modes.
This is accomplished by emphasizing certain combinations of notes that imply the mode.

[bobby d]

Originally Posted by bako

Not quite right.

Harmony is created by the sum total of all the notes played by the band and not solely by any individual contribution.
The bassist and chord player generally have greater impact on the overall harmony than a single note melody does.
If you play a D note against CMa7, it is heard as a 9th or 2nd in relation to C. It doesn't matter that you believe you are
playing a Dorian fingering, the overall result will be Ionian.

Final reiteration for now, there is no such thing as a modal fingering.
Any one octave fingering of the major scale is all that is needed to imply any of the 7 major scale modes.
This is accomplished by emphasizing certain combinations of notes that imply the mode.

I like the way you explain it Bako. Sounds like you learned this rule at a University. I learned it on my own, and truthfully I'm against talking in absolutes.

I said play a D dorian over a C scale, which didn't mean one note, but the scale from D to D. I'm aware of what a 9th or 2nd is.

So why is there no such thing as modal fingering when there are plenty of guitarists that do it? It appears to be semantics.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Ah, now I gotcha.

Mind you, I don't think of playing "key, not chord" as cheating.

If you are making music and expressing yourself, there is no cheating. I've used playing 'in key' to save my drowning butt or to express myself. There's a difference even if no one else hears it!

[brwnhornet59]

Amen Bill!

Bobby, I think what Bako is trying to say is that modes themselves are just the parent key, period. What is going on harmonically in a group setting, mainly the bass, dictates what is being implied. If you really want to express something in a modal way you simply stress the note that is indicative to that sound. Dorian is simply a natural minor scale with a raised 6th, so by stressing that 1 note against a minor 7th chord screams Dorian. Phrygian is simply a natural minor scale with a b2, so implying that one interval against that -7 chord screams phrygian. So it is totally about context. If one is aware of the tension notes that need to be expressed at any given time, the parent key is what you are working with. One note is a powerful tool. Modes are nothing more than a parent key being played at different intervals. It is a reoccurring theme. IMHO

[bako]

Improvise against a drone of C octaves for a few minutes using any combination of notes derived from the C major scale.
To my ears it all sounds like variants of Ionian. Let me know if you hear it differently. Try the same with drone notes of D, E, F, G, A and B.
How does each different drone note change the meaning of the same notes played? In what ways does a fingering influence the result?

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by bako

Final reiteration for now, there is no such thing as a modal fingering.
Any one octave fingering of the major scale is all that is needed to imply any of the 7 major scale modes.
This is accomplished by emphasizing certain combinations of notes that imply the mode.

So instead of focusing on learning a collection of fingerings, focus on knowing the notes and how they relate to each other within context.

AmundLauritzen, in post #4 of this thread said: "A MUCH quicker way to achieve the same result is to visualize the C major scale through the whole progression, but to land on the chord tones for the current chord."

Are you guys saying the same thing? Look at it as one scale (or collection of related notes) and emphasize the notes that give it that certain sound (dorian, for example).

That seems pretty straightforward.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by bobby d

So why is there no such thing as modal fingering when there are plenty of guitarists that do it? It appears to be semantics.

Modal fingerings are most certainly a myth, unfortunately leading to a lot of misunderstandings. If you play a C major scale from D to D it isn't necessarily 'dorian.' It depends, like Bako said, on the sound of the whole ensemble, mainly the bass and whoever is playing chords.

[Al_F]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

The advice I was given - learn to play over progressions using only chord tones (1, 3, 5, 7) before anything else. Learn melodies from standards and learn to improvise and manipulate those melodies. Bebop heads, Charlie Parker specifically, provide great motivic material if you're just getting started with jazz.

I'm a beginner, working on ii V I right now. This is what my teacher advocates. He played a simple solo, showing how to outline the chord changes using the chord tones and a light bulb went off in my head.

[bobby d]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Modal fingerings are most certainly a myth, unfortunately leading to a lot of misunderstandings. If you play a C major scale from D to D it isn't necessarily 'dorian.' It depends, like Bako said, on the sound of the whole ensemble, mainly the bass and whoever is playing chords.

I believe that's what I said too, except I never mentioned anything about modal fingerings. I never heard that phrase until this thread. I first heard of the Dorian mode about 40 years ago, and discovered a few ways to manage it as a scale. I understand now that modes do exist, but modal fingerings don't. This is quite confusing to this old guitar player.

[ArpeggioBlues]

hats off to you onetruevibe.. I was reading above, and was thinking exactly what you just wrote..

The only thing I would add, is that depending how 'outside' you want your lick to sound, if you keep the chord-tones emphasized over the current chord, you can play any scale you like, as long as those chord tones are there..

There really is only a chromatic scale when you get down to it.. approaching those chord tones, from a 1/2 step above (fret) or a step below (2-frets) or cominations.. keep the chord tones on beats, you can syncopate them (off-beat, pickups), but be consistent, the ear has to be able to hear that if you're playing over a Gmaj7, G, B, D and/or F# should all be syncopated, or on beat.. Listen to how it sounds, can you still hear the Gmaj7 in there?

[onetruevibe]

Thanks ArpeggioBlues - but don't give me too much credit. My understanding of this comes in flashes. But I'm enjoying the challenge as well getting to meet some cool people here in the process!

So basically, I need to stop thinking "major scale with a different starting-ending point." Rather, I need to stick with chord tones and emphasize the b3 and b7 to get that dorian sound over a min7 chord. But that's not all, I need to be sure I'm LISTENING to what everyone else is doing harmony-wise to make sure it jives.

...woodshed.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

So basically, I need to stop thinking "major scale with a different starting-ending point." Rather, I need to stick with chord tones and emphasize the b3 and b7 to get that dorian sound over a min7 chord.

Don't forget the natural 6th!

[ArpeggioBlues]

Try this.. If you want to play Dorian (or practice it) Create this vamp on your favorite sequencer (band in a box, jammer whatever):

Play D-dorian over this vamp..

||: Dmi7 | G7/D | Cmaj7/D :||

and you will really hear the D-Dorian modal sound..

How do you create vamps for modes?

take the Mode, figure out what major scale it comes from, Play the ii-V-I of that major scale, but put the Note (D) of your Mode (ie D-Dorian) as a slash chord.

eg. F-Phrygian --- It's the iii of Db Major, the ii-V-I of Db Major are :
Ebmi - Ab7 - DbMa7 ... put F under each chord as:

Ebmi7/F - Ab7/F - DbMa7/F ... and play F-phrygian till you get blisters.. play all the triads of DbMaj, and mix it up.. You'll hear Phrygian as you play.. It's a Joe Satriani and Frank Gambale trick..