Made a clip of Blue Bossa.. Feedback anyone?

[j0h3ll]

Hey guys,

So I had some spare time this morning and decided to record a short (2-chorus long) over a Blue Bossa backing track and would LOVE any of you to get me some feedback on things like note-choice, rhythm, technique, fell, etc.

Here's the link: http://soundcloud.com/joelroy/bluebossa-solo/s-Tailu

I must say I am a VERY novice jazz player with a dominantly rock background so although I feel my technique is rather solid, I tend to find most of my licks completely uninteresting and mostly uninspired when trying to play "the right way" (ie. over the changes, trying to outline every chord).

In order to show you what I mean, I played the first chorus this way and the second one more freely (using my ears and not really paying attentions to the changes). I know the second chorus is massively overplayed, but since I am not so comfortable with the harmony I tend to rely on my chops in order to hide the fact that I am pretty much clueless in regards to which note I am actually playing in regards to the chord that is under it...

Anyway, any constructive criticism would be GREATLY appreciated. Also, any ideas or practice suggestions you might have would be awesome as well since I am rather clueless as to how to practice jazz. Right now, I am mostly going over the real book trying to play arps over the changes but since I know only two positions of each one (ie. I see them as patterns more than as notes) it does not sound anything remotely like music. As for scales, I tend to use only the major and minor and their modes since I am pretty comfortable with chromaticisms... Are there any one that are worth knowing in and out?

Thank you so much for your help!

Cheers,
-JR

[bluewaterpig]

Link doesn't work...

[Spirit59]

I got his link to work by hacking off parts of the end til it loaded...

But alas - he's got zero tracks uploaded - must've got cold feet....

[brwnhornet59]

Didn't work for me either.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Spirit59

I got his link to work by hacking off parts of the end til it loaded...

But alas - he's got zero tracks uploaded - must've got cold feet....

Ha! Ha!

Maybe he will take your post as a challenge to try and repost his song. (Are you listening jOh3ll?)

[j0h3ll]

Link should work now, sorry about that!

As for me having cold feet, I actually take criticism very well and do not generally mind harsh comments for as long as they are constructive, so I really don't see this happening any time soon

Thank you guys for trying to help, though. Now you can actually do it, so do it away!

[Philco]

You obviously have some nice technique.
You need to swing more.....a lot more.
Then your faster phrases would feel more like Jazz and less like Rock.

Personally I think you're using to much compression which makes all notes equal in attack and volume. This does not help expression and tends to make things sound electronic.
But that's a personal thing.
There were some notes that were included because your fingers just wanted to complete a pattern and they sounded wrong. Not "outside" but wrong.

Hope that's not to harsh.
There are some great recordings of that tune on Youtube.
With your technique you could rip that tune apart in a few months.

[j0h3ll]

Thanks a LOT, Philco. That was pretty much what I was looking for.

Would you (or anybody) have any advice in regards to swing rhythm? How do you practice that exactly?

As for patterns, I think you really nailed it on the head. My fingers do want to complete patterns and that makes things sound rather odd at times. I am currently in the process of using more arpeggios and learning to target chord tones more effectively... Hopefully that will help somehow.

Thanks a lot mate, very helpful.
-JR

[AlsoRan]

j0h3ll, I hope you didn't take the jab about cold feet and my comment about challenge personally. I was just giving you a hard time. I kind of figured you would get that song uploaded.

I can only comment as a guy who has attended a lot of live Jazz and as an aspiring guitarist and if I heard you playing like that live, I would be really enjoying it! The tone sounded nice to my ears and the notes pretty clean. I especially picked up on the way you would slide off certain notes when you finished a phrase.

I will live the technical analysis to others more qualified than this humble commenter.


Thanks for sharing.

[brwnhornet59]

If you want to swing, try setting your metronome on beats 2 and 4 while practicing a standard. If running 1/8's try and work on accenting the up beats. It is a great grove once you start feeling it. Listen to the Masters swing, it is unmistakable.

[matelski]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

If you want to swing, try setting your metronome on beats 2 and 4. If running 1/8's try and work on accenting the up beats. It is a great grove once you start feeling it. Listen to the Masters swing, it is unmistakable.

I'll withhold any specific comments on note choice and phrasing.

One thing that needs to be said is DO NOT do what brwnhornet suggests...
According to Hal Galper, syncopated rhythms swing. Truth. However, accented up beats are one of the most unmistakably amateur (artificial) sounding things you can possibly do. There is a world of difference between authentic syncopation and 'accenting upbeats.'

Also, setting your metronome to 2 and 4 is a bad idea for at least two reasons (one specific to your improv and one general). Blue bossa is obviously a bossa. You don't snap your fingers to 2 and 4 on a bossa. Just drum the melodic rhythm with your hands along with a metronome. The melodic rhythm is a cleverly syncopated 16th note rhythm (8th note if you are taking the fake book literally) that has nothing to do with 2 and 4 specifically (1 seems really important!). Listen to benson or martino play blue bossa while snapping on 2 and 4 and tell me it doesn't viscerally feel wrong (it is difficult because you are working against what everyone in the group is doing).

More generally, metronome on 2 and 4 can really screw up your playing on straight ahead swing (the idea to do so was first impressed on me at UMiami, and I think it derailed countless timefeels, my own included). Yes, there is a rhythmic 'backbeat' thing happening in jazz that you need to be aware of and feel. BUT the chords change on 1 and/or 3 and playing 'over the bar' or 'into' the changing harmony is what gives good jazz improv forward momentum. you might put the metronome on 2 and 4 after extensive practice on 1 and 3 to prepare you for playing with other people...

The great 'trick' is to make your playing sound deliberate, given the premiss that it is improvised (a seeming contradiction). The '2 and 4' thing, and accented eighth note 'upbeats,' though an undeniably true fact of "jazz style" are subordinate to BEING ABLE to play into 1 and 3 while improvising. This is what I call 'harmonic control' of an improvised melodic line.

There are numerous GREAT jazz players who started out playing rock and blues, in part because they have an intuition of what I've stated above. The number of great jazz guitarists who don't have a strong foundation in 'normal'/'popular' music is scant at best. Jazz is a subset of music, therefore if you can't play music then you can't play jazz. Non musicians can readily feel the difference...

You are fortunate to have a background in rock and blues! Keep at it. You, and only you, will know when you are achieving what you want to achieve in an improvisation.

[brwnhornet59]

While I agree that practicing a Bossa on 2 and 4 is not wise, I was thinking more a standard swing tune when saying that, so he could get a feel.

Since he is coming from a rock background, which is binary, I think he would get a quicker idea of swing with that approach. Of course I could have told him that jazz is ternary and started explaining syncopation but I feel it would just confuse him more.

BTW, I love Hal, he IS the man.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by matelski

Blue bossa is obviously a bossa. You don't snap your fingers to 2 and 4 on a bossa. Just drum the melodic rhythm with your hands along with a metronome. The melodic rhythm is a cleverly syncopated 16th note rhythm (8th note if you are taking the fake book literally) that has nothing to do with 2 and 4 specifically (1 seems really important!). Listen to benson or martino play blue bossa while snapping on 2 and 4

You have some important points in your post. I need a little clarification.

When I listen to Blue Bossa, my foot is tapping with the Bass, going basically 1 - 2 - 3 - 4, while my fingers (and head bobbing ) occurs on the 2 and the 4 beats. This is my natural response and not one that I put any cognitive thinking into.

Given this, would I not want to go ahead and accent that 2 and 4 note for Blue Bossa on the metronome? That is the way I am "feeling" the song based on years of just listening and dancing to music.

[bobby d]

I like those fast licks. Some of your not choices didn't sound right with the minb5 chords etc. if you can, try slowing down the background track while practicing with it. Altogether, it sounds like you're on your way to becoming a Jazz guitarist. I'd like to hear what you sound like on this a few months from now.

[JakeAcci]

Good to play with the nome on 2 and 4...or 1 and 3...or just beat 2...or just beat 4...you can do all of this with a clear awareness that the chords, in theory, change on either beat one or three (and the rhythm section might not even lay it down that way anyway.)

2 and 4 is a great starting point for swing, I disagree with Hal about that one point, but he's Hal and I'm random-internet-guy. I'll go with the legions that tout 2 and 4 for swing practice.

That's for swing though. For bossa, I don't know - I suck at bossa and kind of hate playing over the feel. I've been advised to hear it as 1 and 3 but I suppose if you can get a metronome to play a clave that's probably more helpful.

[matelski]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

You have some important points in your post. I need a little clarification.

When I listen to Blue Bossa, my foot is tapping with the Bass, going basically 1 - 2 - 3 - 4, while my fingers (and head bobbing ) occurs on the 2 and the 4 beats. This is my natural response and not one that I put any cognitive thinking into.

Given this, would I not want to go ahead and accent that 2 and 4 note for Blue Bossa on the metronome? That is the way I am "feeling" the song based on years of just listening and dancing to music.

If that is how you feel and make sense of it than of course you should go with your intuition. Personally, I can't recall ever hearing a bass player do a 'four to the floor' walking line on this tune, unless switching to a swing feel outright. 'half time' with liberal use of anticipations is more common, no?

Also it should be on the table what the basic bossa rhythm is, on which the rhythm of blue bossa is likely a variation.

File:Bossa nova dance pattern.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by matelski

However, accented up beats are one of the most unmistakably amateur (artificial) sounding things you can possibly do.


The '2 and 4' thing, and accented eighth note 'upbeats,' though an undeniably true fact of "jazz style" are subordinate to BEING ABLE to play into 1 and 3 while improvising. This is what I call 'harmonic control' of an improvised melodic line.

I reread your post with a fresher pair of eyes this morning. I noticed a seeming contradiction in your statements. I am confused as to why you feel that a "a true fact of jazz" is "unmistakably amateur"?

I see that you have put some thought into your statements and that you have had some formal instruction, which is wonderful, but I wonder why you chose to be seemingly harsh, or should I say overzealous with your objections?

We are a tight knit, friendly community that loves music, in particular the subset Jazz. We welcome all newcomers and their opinions with friendship and open arms. Of course opinions and views are not always shared by everyone, so we do discuss them in a genial way. This way the group learns and grows together. With that said I welcome you to the forums.

'half time' with liberal use of anticipations is more common, no?

BTW, I agree with this statement, cut time is how I feel that tune in order to swing. But of course that leads us back to my original point.

[matelski]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I reread your post with a fresher pair of eyes this morning. I noticed a seeming contradiction in your statements. I am confused as to why you feel that a "a true fact of jazz" is "unmistakably amateur"?

I see that you have put some thought into your statements and that you have had some formal instruction, which is wonderful, but I wonder why you chose to be seemingly harsh, or should I say overzealous with your objections?

We are a tight knit, friendly community that loves music, in particular the subset Jazz. We welcome all newcomers and their opinions with friendship and open arms. Of course opinions and views are not always shared by everyone, so we do discuss them in a genial way. This way the group learns and grows together. With that said I welcome you to the forums.




BTW, I agree with this statement, cut time is how I feel that tune in order to swing. But of course that leads us back to my original point.

In hindsight I should have chosen a more diplomatic way to enter into the discussion. I also see that by the end of my post I was really off on a tangent, and I'd like to apologize to Joh3II for 'highjacking' the thread. I'll respond to my contradiction here and post elsewhere if there are further comments.

How can accented upbeats be both amateurish and an integral part of jazz rhythm? The paradox can be resolved if you allow for different contexts in which accented upbeats are being used. When I hear syncopation that really swings I interperet the players sense/command of time as being analogous to the 'delocalized electron configurations' within molecules. There are fixed metric signposts (like the main pulse that permeates the music) but there is a fair amount of 'sloshing' between equivalent ways of thinking about what happens between these points. There is a definite surface pattern happening, but the underlying details are variable and somewhat mysterious. Even in that 'basic bossa rhythm' there is the potential to feel the sycopation as existing in 3 note groups, 4 note groups, etc.... As another example, drum 16th notes in 4/4 (32 attacks in 2 full bars) and try accenting 4 5-note groups followed by 3 4-note groups (this should work out to 32 attacks as well). What you get is a lot of off beat accents that are a consequence of polyrhythmic activity... I believe that this sort of freedom from 'one fixed solution' is key to that carefree, unrestrained, playful sort of feel that I like to listen to (e.g. keith jarrett, wes montgomery, bergonzi, van ruller).

An opposed use of accented upbeats would follow this sort of thought process (say, on a medium swing tune): I am playing in 4/4 and want to play jazz eighth notes. My teacher told me that i should be thinking of a triplet subdivision. I should emphasize 2 and 4 of the bar and my upstrokes should be louder and crisper than my downstrokes because accented upbeats swing and 2 and 4 swing, like my teacher said...

This may end up sounding more like 'jazz' than it does rock/country/classical etc...But that forced, cliche, articulation, does not and can not sound like the 'real deal'

I guess I've never met anyone who 'fixed' their timefeel with a metronome, let alone one on 2 and 4. As such, I have to question whether it is sound advice. It is an interesting pedagogical question and I invite anyone who has had success in coaching someone toward a good jazz feel to weigh in!

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by matelski

An opposed use of accented upbeats would follow this sort of thought process (say, on a medium swing tune): I am playing in 4/4 and want to play jazz eighth notes. My teacher told me that i should be thinking of a triplet subdivision. I should emphasize 2 and 4 of the bar and my upstrokes should be louder and crisper than my downstrokes because accented upbeats swing and 2 and 4 swing, like my teacher said...

This may end up sounding more like 'jazz' than it does rock/country/classical etc...But that forced, cliche, articulation, does not and can not sound like the 'real deal'

I guess I've never met anyone who 'fixed' their timefeel with a metronome, let alone one on 2 and 4. As such, I have to question whether it is sound advice. It is an interesting pedagogical question and I invite anyone who has had success in coaching someone toward a good jazz feel to weigh in!

Interesting insights. This was explained to me much in the same way. Once I started getting my head around the fact that jazz is ternary and that the dotted 1/8 is not true swing, that there are actually 3 beats going on in each measure. The downbeat is equal to 1/3 and the upbeat is equal to 2, 1/3rd beats. Thinking about triplets is what helped me get it through my head, but as was explained to me by Sylvain Courtney, Professor of Jazz at Music Academy International, these are not called triplets though they have the same value, they are simply a syncropated subdivision of one beat.

It is cool listening to him talk about it. According to him the way it is written and the way it should be played are two different things. I guess it is because music notation was first designed around binary concepts and fails to express ternary concepts very well. The way he tells me, is that when playing jazz in 4/4 we are still giving each measure the above mentioned treatment. So his advice was to set the metronome on beats 2 and 4 and accent more of the upbeat. He did say that since there are 3 beats going on that the upbeat note should fall somewhere in between.

This same advice has been repeated many times in this forum. I will ask him to start a thread about this subject so that we can shine some light on it further.

[bobby d]

Emily Remler suggested setting the metronome on 2 and 4 for swing in one of her videos, not Bossa nova. The idea isn't to accent 2 and 4, but to feel those beats. The trick is to jump in on one even though the metronome isn't playing it. Some musicians get it right away, but for some takes a while.

[JonnyPac]

This might be of interest. "Release Beats" are 1 and 3.

YouTube Video

[brwnhornet59]

YouTube Video

Here is Pat Metheny playing ATTYA against 2 and 4. But at this speed you here no up beat accents.

Cool stuff.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by matelski

If that is how you feel and make sense of it than of course you should go with your intuition. Personally, I can't recall ever hearing a bass player do a 'four to the floor' walking line on this tune, unless switching to a swing feel outright. 'half time' with liberal use of anticipations is more common, no?

Also it should be on the table what the basic bossa rhythm is, on which the rhythm of blue bossa is likely a variation.

I think I chose the wrong example of Blue Bossa, and that is where I erred in discussing the beat.

If you would, please listen to this track on amazon by the great Pat Martino and you will clearly here the bassline going 1-2-3-4. Pat obviously took liberties with the song the way he did with many others such as "Along Came Betty," which he gave a Latin Jazz feel.

Thanks for indulging me, Mat, and I too apologize for hijacking the thread from our esteemed forum member.

To bring this thing full circle, might I add that jOh3lll could get a nice gig here in Dallas with his present skill level - and believe me, I have been to many gigs. No way to go for him but up.

[matelski]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

I think I chose the wrong example of Blue Bossa, and that is where I erred in discussing the beat.

If you would, please listen to this track on amazon by the great Pat Martino and you will clearly here the bassline going 1-2-3-4. Pat obviously took liberties with the song the way he did with many others such as "Along Came Betty," which he gave a Latin Jazz feel.

Thanks for indulging me, Mat, and I too apologize for hijacking the thread from our esteemed forum member.

To bring this thing full circle, might I add that jOh3lll could get a nice gig here in Dallas with his present skill level - and believe me, I have been to many gigs. No way to go for him but up.

to respond quickly, In hearing the bass line in the martino version as 1 2 3 4 you are making the precise point that I was trying to get across. Rather than counting 12341234 really fast, you count 1 2 3 4 in a relaxed manner. But if you take the lead sheet literally, these counts correspond to half notes. It makes more sense to call these half notes 'quarter notes' and interpret the melodic rhythm as 16th notes....

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by matelski

to respond quickly, In hearing the bass line in the martino version as 1 2 3 4 you are making the precise point that I was trying to get across. Rather than counting 12341234 really fast, you count 1 2 3 4 in a relaxed manner. But if you take the lead sheet literally, these counts correspond to half notes. It makes more sense to call these half notes 'quarter notes' and interpret the melodic rhythm as 16th notes....

Sorry Mat, I forgot to add the link.

Amazon.com: Blue Bossa: Pat Martino: MP3 Downloads

The drum player is going crazy in the clip, but the Bass player after an interlude goes back to playing guarter notes in what I call a walking bass style.

But I know what you are saying about the 16th notes. When I listened to a different version, I could hear what you were saying and felt it similarly.

Then there is this version, another 1-2-3-4 by the bassline

Blue Bossa - solo guitar backing track (Free mp3!) - YouTube

[brwnhornet59]

I asked Maestro Galper this question the other day. He gave me his reply a few minuets ago.

Maestro, if you have a few minutes I would like to ask you something. We are having a discussion in our forum about swinging. The use of a metronome on 2 and 4, then accenting upbeats was mentioned. Then the use of beats 1 and 3 came up. Then the point was made about jazz being tenary not binary was mentioned by me. A triplet feel was the closest way described to explain tenary rhythm and how it is notated. We are trying to get the best answer to the simple question of how to learn to swing in the most clear of terms. I am sure you have much to say, but perhaps I am asking to much of you. Anyway, thanx for reading this. Cheers.

RE: Your question. I run into this question all the time in my combos. Most think that the "swing beat" is the triplet and play it backwards, starting on the long note of the triplet, on the beat. It starts on the shorter note, on the off beat. Usually those who use this beat get all excited and lose emotional control of the beat. Articulations and dynamics only function are to enhance the line of the moment and should not "automatic." Before one tries to implement the triplet feel one should be able to swing playing even 8th notes first, adding articulations later when this goal has been met. In any case, swinging is an emotional quality not dependent on articulation. You can either swing or you can't. Hope this helps your discussion.

Interesting!

[Philco]

"you can either swing or you can't"

That's a closed door that needs to be opened a little.

I would humbly suggest....listen, listen, listen and then keep listening.
If you listen to great swinging players then sooner or later you will start attempting to phrase like that.

It will start to be the only way you hear lines.

Not swinging is a problem that rock players have when they attempt jazz lines.
They have the rock history in their blood from the beginning of their musical lives.
But if they listen a lot to Jazz then it will start to transform the rock blood........in a good way.
Its not going to happen over night.

I wonder if you CAN approach this in an academic way?
Really?
Thinking about off beats and accents?
Surely the best way to learn a feel is by osmosis.
Let it sink into your bones.

That's my 2c anyway.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by Philco

"you can either swing or you can't"


I would humbly suggest....listen, listen, listen and then keep listening.
If you listen to great swinging players then sooner or later you will start attempting to phrase like that.

Listening is crucial, as was stated before. That is how we start hearing how the masters did it. Only by doing this will those who can't, can.

As was said earlier, Rock, Bossa, etc... is binary. Jazz is ternary. Every Master I have talked to, talks about starting with straight 1/8's and working the upbeat. Of course you hear about the triplet feel, but that is not what it is called in ternary notation, but it is close enough. I liked what Hal said about starting with the short beats.

The lead in would be, trip lets one trip lets two etc..the up beat would fall in between trip lets. That is where listening become paramount.

[bobby d]

Originally Posted by Philco

I would humbly suggest....listen, listen, listen and then keep listening.
If you listen to great swinging players then sooner or later you will start attempting to phrase like that.

Its not going to happen over night.

Philco is repeating some advice I once got from a bass player in regards to getting Funky. Grooves have to be felt, and listening closely to players that have those grooves down is the way to start getting the feel.

But there are some students of music that just don't have any rhythm. Working with a metronome can help in some cases. But listening can't be overemphasized.

[JonnyPac]

BH,

Also from a good discussion with Hal:

Dynamics and articulations should be tailored to enhance the line and not "automatic." Also, it's not a dotted 8th but a triplet with the first two 8ths tied, staring on the 3rd 8th note on the off beat. Too many students get trapped into an automatic dotted 8th note feel that they can't control. I stress to my students that one should learn to play in even 8th notes first. Both are common and again, should be tailored to the line of the moment.