Bitches Brew Revisited

sweetpic · #1 01-07-2012, 02:21 PM

I didn't have any luck with this question on the Theory Forum so I decided to approach it from an improvisation perspective. I want to know what is happening harmonically with the songs on Miles Davis' album Bitches Brew. Generically what is the working system? Where are the chords coming from? His album In A Silent Way seems in the same genre.

cosmic gumbo · #2 01-09-2012, 09:21 AM

Well, what happens is, Miles and his buds jam for about 30+ hours and they tape it all. Then Miles' producer Teo Macero slices and dices it together into something that sounds good and appears to be some type of planned compositions, instead of days of random jamming.

Put it out on an album, give it a cool name and send it to the store. People buy album, are in awe of Miles. Miles fills wheelbarrows full of money and take them to the bank. Miles buys Italian sportscars so he can impress the hot bitches. Miles said his daddy was rich and his mom was good looking. He can play the blues, but never suffered a day in his life, and never intended to.

Sphere · #3 01-09-2012, 12:47 PM

Briefly - for most part they are modal vamps, with some harmonically busier cadences thrown here and there. While it's true that editing was a big part of the creative process on this album, listening to 'The Complete Bitches Brew Session' (or any of the live recordings) clearly shows the source material was cohesive collective improvisation on pre-composed themes, rather than 'random jamming'.

sweetpic · #4 01-11-2012, 04:25 PM

Thanks for the reply Sphere. I appreciate you interest. You obviously have access to some material that's missing from my collection.

mattymel · #5 01-11-2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Well, what happens is, Miles and his buds jam for about 30+ hours and they tape it all. Then Miles' producer Teo Macero slices and dices it together into something that sounds good and appears to be some type of planned compositions, instead of days of random jamming.

Put it out on an album, give it a cool name and send it to the store. People buy album, are in awe of Miles. Miles fills wheelbarrows full of money and take them to the bank. Miles buys Italian sportscars so he can impress the hot bitches. Miles said his daddy was rich and his mom was good looking. He can play the blues, but never suffered a day in his life, and never intended to.

...sounds like a genius to me. you forgot to mention that he got laid a lot too.

sweetpic · #6 01-12-2012, 05:00 PM

Hey guys let's show a little respect here. We ARE talking about "the man" (lol). Seriously. he payed some dues early on. Don't forget the old Les Paul story: When Miles complained that he couldn't make any money, Les told him to play the melody sometimes, to which Miles replied, "I wouldn't be caught dead doing that." Les Paul then told him, "That's why you're hungry."

Sphere · #7 01-12-2012, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpic

Hey guys let's show a little respect here. We ARE talking about "the man" (lol). Seriously. he payed some dues early on. Don't forget the old Les Paul story: When Miles complained that he couldn't make any money, Les told him to play the melody sometimes, to which Miles replied, "I wouldn't be caught dead doing that." Les Paul then told him, "That's why you're hungry."

Not sure about this story. Miles ALWAYS played melody.

sweetpic · #8 01-13-2012, 04:25 PM

I know where you're coming from Sphere but I think Les was talking about playing heads. Back in Les' day he was all over the air with stuff like "How High the Moon" while Miles was blowing 4 or 5 generations on some Gerry Mulligan tune most people never heard of.

cosmic gumbo · #9 01-13-2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpic

Hey guys let's show a little respect here. We ARE talking about "the man" (lol). Seriously. he payed some dues early on. Don't forget the old Les Paul story: When Miles complained that he couldn't make any money, Les told him to play the melody sometimes, to which Miles replied, "I wouldn't be caught dead doing that." Les Paul then told him, "That's why you're hungry."

Prove that this story isn't a total fantasy, and you'll have my total respect.

sweetpic · #10 01-13-2012, 09:33 PM

Gee cos I thought you'd never ask! First of all, before I receive all this respect, let me introduce myself to you. I am a very old fart who spent almost 20 years working in Public Television. I therefore have had considerable research facilities at my disposal as well as contact with a lot of performers.

None of which proves anything, right? So, to quote a PBS show host, "You don't have to take my word for it." Here's my proof:
I possess a video from the American Masters series titled Les Paul Chasing Sound. The supervising producer is Julie Sacks. At about 58:00 Les Paul describes the follow conversation with Miles Davis:

Miles said, "You know what? I'd give anything if I could get a hit record. What's the secret?" Les answered, "It's simple. Play the melody. Play 'Mockingbird Hill'." Miles said, "I wouldn't be caught dead playing 'Mockingbird Hill'." to which Les Paul replied, "That's why you're hungry, Miles."

sweetpic · #11 01-13-2012, 09:50 PM

By the way if you are like me and have to see everything for yourself, you should be able to find the DVD at the public library. The piece was written and produced by James Arntz. Also try YouTube "Les Paul Chasing Sound".

cosmic gumbo · #12 01-14-2012, 06:54 PM

I believe that Les Paul said it, and respect your source. Les Paul was also known as being a pretty good bullshitter, not unlike myself.

sweetpic · #13 01-14-2012, 10:04 PM

No argument there cos. By the way I think we're going to get along just fine. ...talk to you later friend.

HighSpeedSpoon · #14 01-14-2012, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpic

Hey guys let's show a little respect here. We ARE talking about "the man" (lol). Seriously. he payed some dues early on. Don't forget the old Les Paul story: When Miles complained that he couldn't make any money, Les told him to play the melody sometimes, to which Miles replied, "I wouldn't be caught dead doing that." Les Paul then told him, "That's why you're hungry."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphere

Not sure about this story. Miles ALWAYS played melody.

Thanks for the source sweetpic. I had heard that story somewhere and now I know where. The way I remember it - which is apparently incorrect - was that Les told Miles if he wanted to make money, he had to give the people what they want. Not to clutter up the e-sandbox here, but I'd like to add another Miles story. And just to be sure no one breaks out in a cold sweat, my source for this is the jazz educator and accomplished musician, Jerry Coker, who relates this story on page 60 of the 2002 edition of his book Clear Solutions for Jazz Improvisers:

Thelonious Monk was once asked to compare the improvisation of Dizzy Gillespie with that of Miles Davis. His answer was a study in itself. He said, "They both play all the good notes, but that's all Miles Plays"...

Yes, Miles was an extraordinarily melodic player, but he was far from mainstream (and Les was not). Well, thanks for starting this thread sweetpic. You reminded me to dig out some Miles and listen, which I have done while writing. The man kept some pretty good company too. You get mostly crap when you mine diamonds, but you don't get diamonds unless the diamonds are there to begin with.

HighSpeed

sweetpic · #15 01-16-2012, 02:29 PM

Cool reply spoon. I hope we are not all going to have to start quoting our sources every time like in high school composition class. I like your Jerry Coker/Monk story. I feel that way about Miles. Similarly I feel the same way about Jim Hall's melodic excellence. Maybe I can open another can of worms here. How do you think Jim Hall and Miles compare?

bobby d · #16 01-16-2012, 07:14 PM

In a guitar player mag interview Les said that he didn't like walking into a Jazz club unable to recognize the song being played. He was complaining about musicians not even playing the song's written melody the first time around.

But surely Miles played the melody first on many recordings and also returned to the head at the end.

HighSpeedSpoon · #17 01-16-2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpic

Cool reply spoon. I hope we are not all going to have to start quoting our sources every time like in high school composition class. I like your Jerry Coker/Monk story. I feel that way about Miles. Similarly I feel the same way about Jim Hall's melodic excellence. Maybe I can open another can of worms here. How do you think Jim Hall and Miles compare?

You know, I really owe you one for asking that question sweetpic because you started me thinking. I'm not done thinking either, but I have to go shed in a minute and wanted to reply first.

As it happens, I belatedly responded to the Jim Hall Appreciation thread yesterday and was thinking how much I like both Jim and Miles - but I didn't think very deeply at all about why I like them both so well. But now I started thinking about who I like better than most and who I like less well than most. For example I like Jim, Barney Kessell, and Johnny Smith on guitar; Stan Getz, Houston Person, Ernie Watts, and Paul Desmond on sax; Miles on trumpet; I don't like Gillespie or Charlie Parker as much as many others do.

The people I like all play with a creative and beautiful sense of melody and sometimes play with great economy. They all have (or had) fast chops and command of their instruments too. The ones I don't like as well tend to play more frenetically. The ones I like more tend to swing more and the ones I like less also swing but they play more bebop ornamentation. There is nothing wrong with any of that, and I would not want to trivialize a player like Parker for example, who was a sort of Albert Einstein for Jazz. It's a matter of taste.

I don't think this is a very cogent answer to your question, but it's the best I can do for now: Jim Hall and Miles are both like Stan Getz and Johnny Smith. They have impeccably good taste, musical imaginations that seem always fresh and original, and they create extraordinary works of art with their instruments.

Color me opinionated and subjective.

HighSpeed

sweetpic · #18 01-17-2012, 02:34 PM

Quote:

I don't think this is a very cogent answer to your question, but it's the best I can do for now: Jim Hall and Miles are both like Stan Getz and Johnny Smith. They have impeccably good taste, musical imaginations that seem always fresh and original, and they create extraordinary works of art with their instruments.

Thanks spoon. At this stage in my life I am not too much into cogent answers. Not that I've heard them all, but I much prefer thought-provoking discussions these days. I agree with some of your favorites such as Getz, Desmond, and Miles for similar reasons. I personally would add Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane in a ballad setting to the list. I also like the lyrical side of Kenny Burrell but the later work of Jim Hall just seems to stand alone in terms of the qualities we have been discussing.

Thanks for the heads up; I'm definitely going to investigate your Stan Getz/Johnny Smith correspondence. I haven't previously noticed such strong melodic relationships between any besides Miles and Jim Hall. As for thoughtful, lean melodic choices you might also consider guitarist Kevin Eubanks and let me know what you think since I am far from an expert listener. Some of his stuff is beginning to give me some of the same satisfaction as these others we have mentioned..

sweetpic · #19 01-17-2012, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobby d

In a guitar player mag interview Les said that he didn't like walking into a Jazz club unable to recognize the song being played. He was complaining about musicians not even playing the song's written melody the first time around.

But surely Miles played the melody first on many recordings and also returned to the head at the end.

Yes bobby d I think I read the same article. I believe Les was a smart guy and a brilliant musician not necessarily a deep thinker. (On that last point I feel related) I also like to hear the head up front but I've heard some very moving things without it. Of course with some originals, how can you tell?

I get what your saying. Of course MIles stated the head on standards but I think Les was implying a much more explicit use of "the melody." His use of the "Mockingbird Hill" reference was telling in that respect. I'm thinking of Wes Montgomery's later stuff such as his album A Day in the Life. It's the old story of the starving artists not compromising his vision vs. the guy who decides to eat well and be sheltered from the cold. The early Miles seems to have benefited from anger and pain.

HighSpeedSpoon · #20 01-17-2012, 08:40 PM

Thanks for the Kevin Eubanks tip sweetpic. I'll check him out.

Speaking of melody ... I know the feeling that bobby d mentioned of hearing a tune and wondering what the hell is going on. But as much as I agree that opening with a recognizable head is a generally good prescription, I carry a slightly different meaning of "melodic" around in my head (along with all the rocks

). To me, "melodic" means a lot more than unswerving fidelity to a recognizable tune.

Blue in Green is probably a good way to explain what I have in mind:

YouTube Video

This modal tune, the third cut on Miles' Kind of Blue album, is variously credited to Miles Davis, Bill Evans, or both of them. I am told (by a a local saxophonist and jazz professor fwiw) that Bill Evans wrote out the changes, handed them to Miles, and said "Play something over this." The rest is history. Blue in Green is a haunting and engaging jazz classic. It invites you in and engages you as it progresses towards some ineffable but worthwhile musical point. To be able to improvise in a way that has a coherent and worthwhile beginning, middle, and end - something more than just a pile of notes conforming to "jazz rules" - is a special gift. To be able to do that and occasionally produce a groundbreaking and beautiful tune like Blue in Green is a very special gift. Miles had that gift, Stan Getz had that gift, and I think Jim Hall does too. I must admit that with Johnny Smith and Paul Desmond, questions have been raised about how often they actually improvised. I don't know the answers, but they still produced beautiful work.

Here is one more example of what I mean, using the tune Born to be Blue, and presenting cuts that I can find on youtube at the moment

First, here is an offering from Stan Gatz. There is some melody statement at the start and the strings spell out the B section clearly (- the tune is in AABA form). Even so, Getz departs from the melody pretty quickly and in a very lyrical way:

YouTube Video

Next is a cut - also one that I like a lot - from the great Wes Montgomery. This treatment has a big band intro and is more bluesy in flavor. Like Getz, Wes makes a brief statement but does not stick strictly to the melody even in the opening. There soon follows a tasteful and beautiful elaboration:

YouTube Video

Both Getz and Montgomery are very lyrical on thier instruments. To me the Getz version still sounds fresher and more original even after all these years. But Montgomery was brilliant too, and in matters of taste obviously YMMV.

Now here is a Jane Russell vocal. This is not a favorite of mine - there is one I prefer by Ella Fitzgerald if you have it - but the Jane Russell version spells out the melody clearly enough:

YouTube Video

And finally, if somewhat off-point, here is something from the great one himself that shows how I feel when you remind me of the limitless and very different kinds of beauty we have at our fingertips:

YouTube Video

Be well and at peace.

EDIT: I revised the remarks about Getz and Montgomery to make them fairer to Wes (IMO of course).

High Speed

sweetpic · #21 01-17-2012, 09:06 PM

Thanks for the effort spoon. Your point is well made and then some. "The Blue in Green" reference perfectly illustrates what I was trying (not nearly as well) to say when I mentioned "some originals." Thanks again for some beautiful thoughts.

L_Totti · #22 01-19-2012, 10:33 PM

YouTube Video

HighSpeedSpoon · #23 01-20-2012, 11:06 AM

Thanks for the link. After listening, I think both sweetpic and I remembered the conversation clearly enough. (In my case, a clear recollection is somewhat of an achievement.

) Anyway, here is Les at about 58:00 to 58:32 recalling a conversation he had with Miles:

Miles: I'd give anything if I could just get a hit record. What's the secret?
Les: It's simple, play the melody. Play Mockingbird Hill.
Miles: I wouldn't be caught dead playing Mockingbird Hill.
Les: That's why you're hungry Miles. If you wanna' play, you gotta play for the people.

BTW, you can also watch the "Les Paul - Chasing Sound" show on hulu.

EDIT: Sorry sweetpic. I forgot you posted most of the same text above.

HighSpeed

sweetpic · #24 01-21-2012, 02:19 PM

No problem spoon. I've told that story so many times over the years that one more time is like hearing from an old friend.

sweetpic · #25 01-21-2012, 11:59 PM

Thanks for the input JimBobWay. I love that stuff too! If you can indeed find that doc I would love to have a link.

JimBobWay · #26 01-22-2012, 09:11 PM

Jamey Aebersold Jazz: The Miles Davis Story - DVD=

It was a Bravo channel presentation, I taped it way back when. Before you buy it though, give me a day or two to look through my video archives and make sure this is the same. If it is, it's worth the price, a solid documentary featuring many of the players who were involved.
fyi

(plus Jamey is an awesome human being, and it's typical that he would be the one to make this available.)

sweetpic · #27 01-23-2012, 12:14 AM

OK JimBobWay let me know when you can. I buy stuff from Aebersold pretty often. Thanks again.

mr. beaumont · #28 01-23-2012, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimBobWay

...'all of the above', but equally important, "drugs".

I always thought "Brew" was made during one of Miles' clean periods, where he got into boxing...

JimBobWay · #29 01-26-2012, 10:36 PM

I finally got through my search (I worked in film & video for decades & have a massive library, part of which is well catalogued...) and it was NOT the one JA is selling. But I also found both Liebman and Alias' testimony on YouTube, so I will stand down on the matter. I meant no disrespect to Miles or any of the incredible musicians involved - so I deleted my original post and won't make that mistake again.