Working on tritone sub lines

[nion]

I've been experimenting with the concept of tritone substitutions in my lines and I feel kind of stuck.

I took some very strong "inside" lines that I had previously transcribed (some Coltrane, some Lee Konitz) and applied them on standards using the tritone sub. They sound cool but I feel kind of limited, a bit boxed in. I would like to be more free being able to use this on the fly.I guess I just need to spend a lot of time with it. One good thing is that I can hear it in my head pretty good, it just feels awkward adapting it on the guitar.

Have you guys transcribed a line or a solo that uses this approach? I would like to learn a few actual examples of this idea instead of adapting other language, which is cool, but it feels a bit unnatural sometimes. I know most jazz improvisers use this approach here and there but I haven't found a concrete example, so any help would be greatly appreciated.


I've been changing the resolution notes off my original transcribed lines so they fit and resolve nicely over the tritone sub changes.

here are a few cool half-step resolutions that I've been shedding:

over Dm7 going to G7 going to C
we superimpose Abmin7 Db7 to C

the Ab goes nicely to G
Cb goes nicely to C
Eb to E
Gb to G
Db goes to C or D
F goes to E

Ok this is the theory and those are the pitches that I'm jiggling with. Making music, another story. I tend to think of the tritone major scale, so in this case thinking Gb helps, and then you should organise the pitches of the sub scale to fit and avoid playing the Gb on a strong beat among other things.

Any ideas, tips, comments? cheers

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

As for playing the note Gb over (the tritone sub for) G7 -- try playing the Db lydian dominant scale instead:

Db Eb F G (!) Ab Bb Cb Db

Note that this has the same note set as the G altered scale:

G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G

That's the tritone substitution for yah.

Here's a comment I made in another thread:

As a general comment, I think the scale choice matters less that we imagine. As long as you establish the tonality at the beginning (don't go outside too quickly!), resolve at the end, nail some chord tones along the way, then the "in between" notes can be almost anything.

Here's an example of what I mean. Over a C7, shall we play C lydian dominant or C altered? One is the other, raised a tritone, so they are opposites, so to speak. Here's a simple lick that uses all the scale tones and no passing tones, done first with C lydian dominant (wish that Gb could have been notated as a F#) and then with C altered (The chords are | C7 | F | C7 | F |).



The two takes sound more similar than different to me.

[nion]

thanks for your quick contribution man.

I already knew about all the melodic minor stuff, thanks, but that's really not what I'm after in terms of sound. I've been using the lydian dominant sound and altered for a long time, but I want to approach this from a chord to chord point of view, not scales, having some key centre in mind though. Specially since not many of my "idols" use the melodic minor that way.

I have talked and studied with some of the big names in contemporary jazz and asked this kind of question to them. None of them think about melodic minor for the tritone sub, they think in terms of changes, specially superimposing ii-v's from the tritone, or a major or minor third away. That to me was gospel, coming straight from the people i like, instead of coming from the Levine book or something.

So basically, what I want to be able to do is to play my bebop language but through the tritone sub filter, to add lots of chromaticism to the sound. That's why I was wondering if someone had some specific solo, line or record to check out, because I believe this stuff must be learnt straight from the masters.

thank you for your help anyway !

[nion]

anyone else?

[AmundLauritzen]

Originally Posted by nion

thanks for your quick contribution man.

I already knew about all the melodic minor stuff, thanks, but that's really not what I'm after in terms of sound. I've been using the lydian dominant sound and altered for a long time, but I want to approach this from a chord to chord point of view, not scales, having some key centre in mind though. Specially since not many of my "idols" use the melodic minor that way.

I have talked and studied with some of the big names in contemporary jazz and asked this kind of question to them. None of them think about melodic minor for the tritone sub, they think in terms of changes, specially superimposing ii-v's from the tritone, or a major or minor third away. That to me was gospel, coming straight from the people i like, instead of coming from the Levine book or something.

So basically, what I want to be able to do is to play my bebop language but through the tritone sub filter, to add lots of chromaticism to the sound. That's why I was wondering if someone had some specific solo, line or record to check out, because I believe this stuff must be learnt straight from the masters.

thank you for your help anyway !

You can use all your IIm7 lines. II and V are interchangeable, so think of a II-V a tritone away from your altered dominant(try Abm7 lines over G7).

That's how players like Pat Martino approach tritone substitution. It's a great way to get more applications for what you already know.

[nion]

Yeah, I thought about that too, thanks for the tip anyway. What I'm finding a bit hard is to translate all that theory into work and make it sound musical.

back to the shed I guess!