How to Grow from Modes/Scales

MarcAnthonyB · #1 12-29-2011, 11:48 PM

Background:

I have been playing guitar since I was 8 1/2 years old. I got into jazz when I was about 12 years old. Now I am 16. I practice 4-8 hours/day and I only had 1 year of private lessons (my first year of playing guitar). The rest I have been playing with other musicians in public in San Francisco, learning from them, reading about theory, improving my technique by going to camps like Stanford Jazz Workshop, and doing ear training with a few iPhone applications. Plus, LOTS of listening.

Help:
The past year I have been living and breathing modes/scales, the theory behind them, how to use them, etc. Of course, private lessons would help, however, I am not in a financial state that can allow that right now.

My problem with improvisation is that when I start out, it sounds pretty good, but as the solo progresses, it sounds like the same thing played differently. I usually stick to one scale (harmonic minor) or I play the modes all the way through for each chord that is in the song.

So if I were improvising to Autumn Leaves, the first four bars I would play: A Dorian, D Mixolydian, G Ionian, and C Lydian. It sounds as if I'm just playing scales and modes back and forth. I really want to know how to get away from this dull, boring style of improvising to something like Julian Lage's playing.

I listen to all types of Music that are worth listening to (Brazillian Jazz, Latin Jazz, Jazz, Fusion, Bebop, Swing, Blues, classic rock (beatles, acdc). So I think it's safe to say that I have a good amount of exposure to a wide range of music genres/styles.

Any tips/advice on how to make my improvising more interesting is greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

-Marc

Sandor · #2 12-30-2011, 12:34 AM

Give the key center approach a shot, and work on arpeggios. Working on arps for a while should help with the scale monotony for sure. If you like lage, transcribe his solos. It sounds like you have a great start. I wish I started Jazz that early.

brwnhornet59 · #3 12-30-2011, 01:08 AM

It sounds like you are playing scales, because you are. Sandor is right on with his advice. Arps and chromatic/diatonic lines connecting them, will help you establish the beginning of the vocabulary you are seeking.

Keep up the good work and learn melodic minor while you are at it.

beasleybubba · #4 12-30-2011, 01:58 AM

Man I wish I was trying to play jazz at your age... you've got an awesome start, keep it up! Listen to what these guys say, arps are crucial. Learn arpeggio shapes within the different scale fingerings you already know. Outline the chords as you improvise and connect chordtones with chromatic ideas or with notes from the scales you already know. Listen to a ton of jazz and transcribe solos that get you fired up.

MarcAnthonyB · #5 12-30-2011, 02:24 AM

Sandor: Thanks a lot! I have been working on arpeggios for a while now, they do help a lot, but I need something that makes my improvising grab attention. Something that makes someone stop and say "Hey! I want to listen to more!" Also, key center? Could you elaborate a little more on that? Thanks!

brwnhornet59: I'm pretty sure I know almost every single scale/mode that is worth learning. The chromatic/diatonic lines to compliment/connect them are something that I've been tapping into in the past few weeks. I know A TON of theory and understand it all when someone else plays it, I'm just having trouble actually creating something with all of the theory/knowledge that I have. Any advice on using current knowledge to create great lines on the spot will be helpful, thanks again!

beasleybubba: I'll definitely keep on working on various chord shapes/variations along with apreggios. I'm happy to say that after this previous summer at Stanford Jazz Workshop, I am very knowledgeable on the construction of chords. However, I am weak with learning when/how to use the many different inversions/shapes of chords during certain parts of songs on the spot. For example, here's one of Lage's videos: Julian Lage-Jorge Roeder duo: "Ode to Elvin" - YouTube. Any other advice on how I can reach that level of playing? (especially the part at 4:06).

Lastly, anymore advice on how I can get to this style/level of improvising?: Gilad Hekselman, Joel Frahm, Ari Hoenig, Orlando Le Fleming Live At Small's - YouTube

Thanks again for all of the advice/feedback! I will definitely be working on arpeggios. Also, I just google'd "key center." I usually just go by ear and what feels right, but yes, Slandor, knowing the technical/theoretical aspect of the right or "most stable" notes to play would be very helpful!

I cannot express how I thankful I am for the responses. This is really helping me out!

brwnhornet59 · #6 12-30-2011, 02:54 AM

Hey MarcAnthonyB, Sandor was saying to stick to the parent key rather than playing dorian over a ii chord or myxo over a V. In essence you are making it more difficult. By allowing yourself to just stay in the parent key and improvise will free you up from worrying about modes. It is ok here and there but you are much better served playing short arps and then connecting them with diatonic/chromatic lines based on the parent key.

Your statement to me was troublesome. Saying that you know every scale/mode worth learning sounds like you feel there are some not worth learning. If that is what you meant, I can tell you that thinking is not sound. Also if you really want to open up your playing you will have to at some point embrace melodic minor. It is the essence of much that we do.

There are many things you should be working on. If you want to start sounding better with Autumn Leaves, you can try this.

A-7, D7, GM7, CM7....over these chords you want to play the 4 note arp off of the 3rd of each chord.

For A-7, play CM7 arp 1,3,5,7 this will give you the b3,5,b7,9 sound over A-7

D7, ....play F#-7b5 1,b3,b5,b7... This give you the 3,5,b7,9 of D7

GM7...play B-7 this give you the 3,5,7,9

CM7...play E-7

Do you make the E-7 into E7? If so you can use phrygian dom, the 5th mode of AHM. But I prefer Dorian 2b, the 2nd mode of DMM or Myxob6, the 5th mode of AMM.

Also you should be working very hard on drop2 chord forms and all of their inversions. Especially the upper string set.

Go to the link in my signature. Matt Warnocks site is full of many many many free lessons and resources that address these very issues. You can spend months in there.

One last thing. Knowing theory, scales modes etc.. is all wonderful, but it does not teach you how to use them or play music. You need to let your skills catch up with your knowledge. Many fine players have taken very little to the nth degree. Many crappy players know every scale, mode, theory out the yin yang, but can't play their way out of a paper bag. The best players do it all these days. Application and context. Your ears are the most powerful tools you possess. Train them well and you can do anything.

MarcAnthonyB · #7 12-30-2011, 03:02 AM

Hey brwnhornet59, I did not mean that at all. Sorry about that.

I do think that every single scale/mode is important to learn especially because each can be used to create a slightly different sound. For example, one of my favorite modes is the second mode of harmonic minor. I also enjoy smoothly transitioning between scales and modes, so keeping it diatonic can get kind of boring for me...

ALSO! How do you know which chords to substitute for what? Playing the E-7 for CM7, is that from the C major perspective? or the G major perspective? I'm not sure if E-7 is considered C's phrygian chord or G's aeolian chord.

Lastly, drop2 chords? Never heard of them. I'll check that out.

Thanks again, I'll check that website right now!

brwnhornet59 · #8 12-30-2011, 03:10 AM

It is all good. Sometimes it is hard to tell what a person means when reading. I am pleased that I was wrong. =)

I love HM as well. When I was younger I used that scale exclusively.

As for what sub goes with what chord. I have to ask you this. What is the parent key of this progression, A-7,D7,GM7,CM7?

This link will take you to the drop2 section of Matt's site!

Drop 2 Chords | MattWarnockGuitar.com

MarcAnthonyB · #9 12-30-2011, 03:11 AM

Oh and about that "let my skills catch up to my knowledge."

I'm pretty sure they're all caught up. I'm only saying this because I've had several offers from big-time musicians in the San Francisco bay area to perform with them or record with them.

World-class player Pianist Patricia Thumas even asked me to play with her on her next album.

I'm not one to brag, but I just want to be clear: I am definitely NOT a crappy player.

MarcAnthonyB · #10 12-30-2011, 03:14 AM

Parent key is GM7 by the way.

brwnhornet59 · #11 12-30-2011, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcAnthonyB

Oh and about that "let my skills catch up to my knowledge."

I'm pretty sure they're all caught up. I'm only saying this because I've had several offers from big-time musicians in the San Francisco bay area to perform with them or record with them.

World-class player Pianist Patricia Thumas even asked me to play with her on her next album.

I'm not one to brag, but I just want to be clear: I am definitely NOT a crappy player.

This is wonderful stuff. But I am not talking about technical prowess. I am talking about applying what you know and being able to play it. In this sense your skills are not as advanced as your knowledge yet. You have an edge that many do not, you are young and eager. Have patience.

brwnhornet59 · #12 12-30-2011, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcAnthonyB

Parent key is GM7 by the way.

Very good. Now with the harmonized G scale, what would be the logical diatonic subs to be played off of the 3rd of each chord?

Did you catch the link to the drop2 chords?

MarcAnthonyB · #13 12-30-2011, 03:16 AM

(once again) Thank you for the advice.

MarcAnthonyB · #14 12-30-2011, 03:22 AM

I don't quite understand your question. Do you mean the 3rd mode of the current chord that is being played? So if I were playing in the key of GM7 and came across a CM7 chord, I could just play the E-7 from the CM7 perspective? I don't quite understand what you're asking.

By the way, I never knew what these kinds of chords were (drop 2 chords)! I've been using them all this time without even knowing exactly what they meant or what they are. Thanks again for this!

brwnhornet59 · #15 12-30-2011, 03:23 AM

You are welcome. BTW, do you have anything you can post of your playing?

MarcAnthonyB · #16 12-30-2011, 03:25 AM

I haven't written any songs myself yet.

brwnhornet59 · #17 12-30-2011, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcAnthonyB

I don't quite understand your question. Do you mean the 3rd mode of the current chord that is being played? So if I were playing in the key of GM7 and came across a CM7 chord, I could just play the E-7 from the CM7 perspective? I don't quite understand what you're asking.

By the way, I never knew what these kinds of chords were (drop 2 chords)! I've been using them all this time without even knowing exactly what they meant or what they are. Thanks again for this!

Yes, from the perspective of each chord, what would the 4 note arp be that you would play off of the 3rd?

There are 4 sets of drop2 chords.. but then you have all of their inversions. Some you will know, some you will not.

MarcAnthonyB · #18 12-30-2011, 03:31 AM

So, E-7, app 1, b3, 5, b7?

brwnhornet59 · #19 12-30-2011, 03:34 AM

Yup. Now with this basic rule in place we see that playing the arp E-7 off of the 3rd, gives us a rootless CM9. You can use this with comping, the Bass player always has the root, but it will make your lines really sweet right away.

Now try it. A-7,D7,GM7,CM7. Play those different arps over those chords and tell me how they sound.

MarcAnthonyB · #20 12-30-2011, 03:36 AM

Great, I'll get right on that in the morning. It's 1:35 AM where I'm at right now, need to get some rest, ha.

Again, thank you so much!

brwnhornet59 · #21 12-30-2011, 03:37 AM

Good. There are some really cool ideas waiting for you to discover. You should be able to devour them!

Please post some of your playing.

MarcAnthonyB · #22 12-30-2011, 03:40 AM

Oh, you mean a video? I don't have a video of me playing. But I'll see if I can borrow a camera from one of my friends and make one and post it on here, get some tips/advice on my technique.

Thanks and have a fantastic new years!

brwnhornet59 · #23 12-30-2011, 03:46 AM

Great! You as well. I look forward to hearing you.

bako · #24 12-30-2011, 08:20 AM

Think of the scale as one big chord centered on each degree. Every 7th chord derived from the scale is a component of each extension.

GBDF#---BDF#A---DF#AC---F#ACE---ACEG---CEGB---EGBD

G B D F# A C E---1 3 5 7 9 11 13

A C E G B D F#---1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13

B D F# A C E G---1 b3 5 b7 b9 11 b13

C E G B D F# A---1 3 5 7 9 #11 13

D F# A C E G B---1 3 5 b7 9 11 13

E G B D F# A C---1 b3 5 b7 9 11 b13

F# A C E G B D---1 b3 b5 b7 b9 11 b13

Some notes present challenges within some chords. They can disrupt the intended harmonic function.
Some might say avoid them but I say embrace them.
Each mode has it's characteristic intervals, learn their sound and how to use them.

This methodology can and should be applied to other 7 tone scales (melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major) in exactly the same way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding making your improvisation more interesting:

I would suggest learning to sing some improvisations that you like. (start with easy ones).
Analyze elements in the solos that make them successful for you.
Tape yourself improvising and observe what you are doing well and what details need improvement.

Not knowing your playing here's some possible examples I just made up:

leave more space
fewer ideas more development
diversify rhythmically where your phrases start and end
using accents to give your lines more definition
more harmonic variety
engage your imagination
use broad dynamic gestures

Find your own details.

bobby d · #25 12-30-2011, 09:23 AM

I love playing over Autumn Leaves. My approach is to not start my solo on the 1st beat, but to take time to play what I hear. Another thing I did for that particular song was to learn the Gbmi-5 chord in all inversions and positions up and down the neck. That enables me to go into a chord based solo the 2nd or 3rd time thru the progression. Of course all positions and inversions of the other chords is needed too!

Chromatic runs along with arpeggios (down as well as up) and slides (down) - scales in sequence, all come together in phrases that breath (space).

coolvinny · #26 12-30-2011, 12:14 PM

It really sounds to me like you need to take licks off records and then practice them until you can know them inside out, can vary them, etc. I'm by no means a good player, but I started doing this (spending most my time on transcribing and applying licks to tunes) about 6 weeks ago and my playing is improving by leaps and bounds. As you yourself stated, you tend to think and play on different scales whenever the chords change. Listen to the top pros (on any instrument)...do they sound like they're doing that? Nope.

MarcAnthonyB · #27 12-30-2011, 01:08 PM

Wow, thanks a lot everyone!

I will definitely apply all of this.

wolflen · #28 01-12-2012, 02:19 PM

this is using a melodic approach...

take part of any melody ..5 notes lets say..something you can recognize..and take two of your favorite licks...now mix and match...play a lick play the melody play a lick...now work on making them one statement..you may and will alter the rhythmic construction of the licks and melody but with time and patients you will begin to see it work..

after you are comfortable with the technique..try different intervals with the notes..then add/subtract notes..then begin to construct 8 bar phrases with this kind of stuff..

put it in blues progressions and try in as many keys as you can..try as many positions as you can also..

new ideas will be borne as you practice this daily...this should get you on your way to develop your own melodies and improv lines ...

play well

wolf

JonnyPac · #29 01-12-2012, 06:10 PM

Lots of good advice here- Whereabouts in CA are ya?

Here are a few fun things to play with and add to your bag:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...c-devices.html

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...fretboard.html

And some from one of my educator heroes, though not overly-modal in content:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...-must-see.html

Hudsontoronto · #30 01-14-2012, 09:42 AM

What you are looking for is some thing called "scale sequences ". That will give you that distinguished sound that you want... Look it up on YouTube " Pebber Brown scale seguences".
Pebber in my teacher and I really learned a lot from him...
Go to his website if you like there are tons of free stuff there.
www. pbguitarstudio.com

Good luck.