When to stop practicing arpeggios?

[aniss1001]

Just wondering how much you guys practice arpeggios (and how). Where do you put the "limit"? I mean I'm pretty good with the basics: 7, 7#5, M7, m7, m7b5 -chords, in all their positions. Currently working on stuff like 9,7b9, 7#9, 7b5, m9, M7add9, 7sus4, mM7 -chords as well as the triads (they are really tricky :/).

But there are so many posible arpeggios to pick. Just wondering what you guys think?

[TruthHertz]

There are many ways you can play even triads so they articulate the sounds and qualities of extended chords without playing all the notes. Bruce Saunders has books about getting really hip harmonies out of triad combinations. You don't need to learn the whole gamut of every single combination. He works with pentatonics to cover modal sounds too.
Mick Goodrick's book on modal compression lets you get entire modes from combinations of two triads.
Don Mock's Artful Arpeggios takes arpeggio runs and depending on where you play them in relation to the root it gives you all sorts of extended harmony.
It's not an infinite pursuit by any means. Once you understand the chord scales and the triads, 7ths and pentatonics within them, you can use this knowledge to get sounds out of shapes you already know. Your triads are like your basic molecules, get them down really well and move them around with facility and you can form more complex compounds.

Of course expand your vocabulary as much as you want. Life is long!
David

[fumblefingers]

never.

one might as well ask, "when will i get to stop practicing?" the only answer is...... "when you hang it up".

[Space Pickle]

when you become...THE ARPEGGIATOR

[JakeAcci]

I don't know about when. I haven't made arpeggio practice part of my practice routine in a very long time. Often I'll try going through a tune only using chord tones, and that is somewhat similar, but a lot more musical.

[AmundLauritzen]

Whenever I'm working on some concept I try to be aware of arpeggios/triads etcetra. If I'm working on diminished concepts, I'll try to work some of the triads from the dim scale into my lines to break up the predictable nature of the scale. If I feel I need more vocabulary for the altered scale, I work on an arpeggio within that scale that I don't have enough vocabulary for. I work it into existing lines to make old stuff new. You can even use arpeggios in the pentatonic scale. It has sus arpeggios, and those can sound fresh if you're creative about how you apply the scale.
The Whole Tone Scale has all augmented triads, so whenever I work on that scale I can work on my augmented triads at the same time.

Personally, I never work scales and arpeggios mechanically. If I want to practise scales or arpeggios, I always use them to write lines. I'll make up a line with no accompaniment using the concept I want to practice, and then I work it into my vocabulary by mixing it with my improvisation over a backing track.
I don't believe in mechanical exercises. I think the best way is to use whatever you're working on as a basis to build a musical statement and practice that line. Then when it's under your fingers and in your ear, make up a new one and mix and match those two. Take elements from both, combine them in different ways and suddenly you have even more lines. You can see how this can go on forever.

[whiskey02]

When you're lying in a casket and someone closes the lid!

[aniss1001]

Interesting responses Apparently not everybody practice arps. I find it very rewarding and useful.

But noone actually answered (well those who DO practice arps) whether they stick to triads and basic 4 note chords or also practice for example 7b9 arps and whatnot ???

Also I's like to know whether you play the arps linearly or in different patterns (like you would a scale)?

And I also (like JakeAcci) go through tunes only playing arps. At 1st mechanically maybe starting all arps on root notes, then conecting the lines together and finally just improvising using these chord notes. Because of this I started practicing extended arps. Like using 7#5, 7#5b9, 7b9 arps instead of pure 7 arps on altered dominants.

[Unburst]

M7, m7, dom7, m7b5 and a little dom7b9, I don't go much beyond that in terms of extensions.

I run them linearly and in patterns, also run inversions, e.g. 3rd to 9th.

I also run through tune's changes in various positions, especially areas of the neck I feel less comfortable on.

More recently I've started working on playing high to low rather than low to high.

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by Unburst

I run them linearly and in patterns, also run inversions, e.g. 3rd to 9th.

OK! I'm curious.. which patterns do you practice? And what do you mean by "inversion"? 3rd to 9th that is like playing an Em7 over a CM7 chord. But how do you practice that ?

[mike walker]

Next thurs? Say, around 3pm?

[jayx123]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I don't know about when. I haven't made arpeggio practice part of my practice routine in a very long time. Often I'll try going through a tune only using chord tones, and that is somewhat similar, but a lot more musical.

I used to practice arps but now I practice like Jake. chord tones always in the context of a tune.

[Soco]

Originally Posted by mike walker

Next thurs? Say, around 3pm?

Make it 4pm and we have a deal!

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Just wondering how much you guys practice arpeggios (and how).

The "Connecting game" by Joe Elliot is good, his book "Jazz Guitar Soloing" is mentioned on this forum.

Using a song's progression:

1.) Play only the arpeggio belonging to the chord over which you are playing.

2.) When changing to the next chord, play the nearest arpeggio note of the new chord.

This exercise takes a bit of time to play correctly, but I think this is an excellent arpeggio exercise.

Nuff

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by whiskey02

When you're lying in a casket and someone closes the lid!

That's got to be a big coffin if you are buried with your archtop, too.

[Unburst]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

OK! I'm curious.. which patterns do you practice? And what do you mean by "inversion"? 3rd to 9th that is like playing an Em7 over a CM7 chord. But how do you practice that ?

Yes, 1st inversion like playing a Gmaj9 starting on B and ending on A
Playing in patterns like this:1,5 3,7 etc. groups of 3, 4 or 5, also run through a harmonized scale in one position, like this:

E-----------------------------------------------------2
B--------------------------------------3------5----3-
G------------------2-----4---2-5-----4----2-5----4--
D------4--2-5----4---2-5---4------2-5----4------5---
A--2-5---3----2-5---3-----5--------------------------
E-3-----5--------------------------------------------- etc.
 

Also I'll combine arpeggios for a ii-V, V-I or ii-V-I
like this:

ii-V ascending only     up/down/up     
E-------------2------------------------------------------
B-----------3------------------------3-------------------
G-------2-5----------------------2-5--------------------
D---2-5--------------------2-5-4-----------------------
A--3----------------------3------------------------------
E-5----------------------5-------------------------------

ii-V-I                                Ascending with a b9 thrown in
E---------------2------------------------------2-3-2---------
B-------------3--3---------------------------4------3--------
G---------2-5-----4---------------------2-5----------4--------
D---2-5-4----------5-4--------------2-5----------------5-4----
A--3--------------------5-2--------3----------------------5-2--
E-5-------------------------3-----5----------------------------3-
 

Another way is to use neighbor tones or enclosures, the key is to practice them with a musical application in mind instead of running up and down.

[gingerjazz]

In response to the original question about when to stop practicing arpeggios,i suppose it is a case of once you know them well enough to start applying them rather than just running them up and down.Maybe a teacher would be of some help with this.

[mattymel]

pick any tune. i think you would be 10X better served learning to play a different arpeggio over every chord in the progression other than the root.

for example (off the top of my head):
original: Cma7 Ami7 Dmi7 G7
try instead: Emi7 Emi7 FMa7 Fmi7

not only more colorful, better voice leading, but simpler and way more like how a great improviser would approach a simple progression...with a simple way to navigate through it.

...basically if you know all your basic 7th chord arpeggios and inversions, you have EVERYTHING you need. now its just a matter of learning how to apply them creatively in a hip way. so many players feel the need to keep learning new material instead of working with what they already know. as a result you are in a state of constant...poo. at least relearning how to use something i already know is the best way to light a fire under my ass.

[marcwhy]

If you're getting bored, set up a few lessons with Chris Crocco and discuss arps; that'll give you another dozen years or so of practicing.

[aniss1001]

Thanks for the input. I'll be trying out some of what you mentioned (Unburst and mattymel).

What I'm doing a lot lately is actually the "connecting game" as Nuff Said mentioned. I also do it with scales sometimes.

And for those of you who are doing similar exercises I still wonder: Do you play ONLY basic 4 note chords? That is if the tune says BbAlt or Bb7#9#5 for example would you simply play a Bb7 arp or what??

This simple sounds "wrong" very fast and that is one of the reasons I started practicing extended arps too...

Ah and by the way I checked out Don Mock's book "Artful Arpeggios" that TruthHertz mentioned. It seem pretty good. Straight to the point and very useful (allthough I find his basic arp patterns a bit odd?!).. Anyway thanks for mentioning it..

[gingerjazz]

Anis i too have spent time playing the connecting game.If i was to come across either of those two chords i would switch to the altered scale(7th mode of melodic minor).

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by gingerjazz

Anis i too have spent time playing the connecting game.If i was to come across either of those two chords i would switch to the altered scale(7th mode of melodic minor).

Yes I would also play an altered scale but I was refferring to doing it with arps only...

[Jzzr]

[quote=marcwhy;190934]If you're getting bored, set up a few lessons with Chris Crocco and discuss arps; that'll give you another dozen years or so of practicing.[/

Care to expand on that?

[yongElayne]

Mick Goodrick's book on modal compression lets you get entire modes from combinations of two triads.

[gingerjazz]

Anis,in reply to what yo mentioned about playing in arps,you could play any of the harmonized parent melodic minor scale such as min/Maj7 or MAJ7#5 but i like to think of the altered scale as on big arpeggio due to the fact that any of the notes could be considered as a chord tone over a functioning dominant chord.So when practicing the connecting game i would switch between arps on the major and minor chords and the full altered scale over the altered dominants.I also switch to Locrian#2(6th mode of mm)over min7b5 chords.Hope that makes sense.In a real playing situation though i would probably base my lines on arpeggios from the harmonized melodic minor scale.I am no expert this is just the way i do it.

[gingerjazz]

Hey,srinjay,well i cannot speak for anyone else but i know that any level of competency that i have achieved has been through conscious work as you say,namely about 37 years of heavy conscious work and continuous study and more hard work and more study.Only a select few are born with an instinct for this stuff and they still have to put in the hours ,so don't despair you are just like the rest of us.peace.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Interesting responses Apparently not everybody practice arps. I find it very rewarding and useful.

But noone actually answered (well those who DO practice arps) whether they stick to triads and basic 4 note chords or also practice for example 7b9 arps and whatnot ???

Also I's like to know whether you play the arps linearly or in different patterns (like you would a scale)?

And I also (like JakeAcci) go through tunes only playing arps. At 1st mechanically maybe starting all arps on root notes, then conecting the lines together and finally just improvising using these chord notes. Because of this I started practicing extended arps. Like using 7#5, 7#5b9, 7b9 arps instead of pure 7 arps on altered dominants.

I spend most of my time working on arps, but I work on stringing them together, and find as many uses as possible for the ones I already know. So while I might not work on my mi7th arps I work on all the combinations I can think just using them through changes etc.

[marcwhy]

Originally Posted by yongElayne

Mick Goodrick's book on modal compression lets you get entire modes from combinations of two triads.

What book is this?!?! The new, not-yet-published one with Tim Miller? Dave keeps mentioning it as well...

Thanks.

[JensL]

So maybe I am a bit late with input into the discussion.

I guess I always practice arps, but there are so many ways to do so.
For me it's is more about knowing when to change things so that I am not always playing the same.

I find it more practical to practice triads and 7th chords than 9th, 11th etc so I do that more. Melodically I superimpose 7th chords or triads to get the extensions. That was already covered.

Just a few considerations:

Range: 1. octave, 2 octaves, one position, all chord tones of an arp in one scale fingering, 1 string, 2 strings, whole neck, open inversions.

Context: Placing the arpeggios in a context: Diatonic arps, a song, a vamp, cadence etc.

Execution: Three note patterns, four note paterns, 1 5 3 7 or inversed 1 5 7 3 etc. (This applies to triads as well as 7th or 9th chords, I just wrote it out for a 7th chord becase that is easy..)

Technique:
Alt picking, slurs, sweeps, pick and fingers, tapping etc..

One good way to come up with new ideas for patterns is to translate from
arpeggios to scales or pentatonic scales or the other way around. The 1 5 3 7 is the same pattern as a scale in thirds f.ex.

Jens

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by JensL

One good way to come up with new ideas for patterns is to translate from
arpeggios to scales or pentatonic scales or the other way around. The 1 5 3 7 is the same pattern as a scale in thirds f.ex.

Thanks for the input. But I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above? Could you elaborate a bit?