Playing Natural 3 on Minor 7s and Major 7 on Dominant 7s

[bluewaterpig]

This topic picked up a lot of steam in the other thread and I think it's absolutely worth discussing.

I can't help smiling whenever I see somebody post "Um, that scale has a Major 7 and you're playing over a Dominant 7 chord....that's not going to sound very good!!"

Obviously, people say that for a reason (because you're taught that way), but if you ask me, it's a huge part of the step into "advanced" musicianship when you realize that these extremely "wrong" notes are key to sounding like the giants, Coltrane specifically.

Here's a great Coltrane lick from the main site that uses a Gb (F#) over a Dm7. I love how this sounds.

Guitar Tablature - Jazz Guitar : John Coltrane Licks

[M-ster]

I believe that many (perhaps all?) of these occurrences are the result of the improvisor superimposing other harmonies on top of the stated/standard/common changes. In other words, rather than thinking, "I'm gonna play the most out notes I can get to over this next change!" the player is more likely just thinking different changes.

In the Coltrane example, the notes over the D-7 seem rather out until you consider that it's more easily explained by thinking D7 to G7 to C, rather than D-7. Now the notes become 13, 3, #9, b9 over the D chord -- it's a D7(13)(b9) riff, or D13b9, if you prefer.

I know Fareed Haque discusses this in a YT video: that any change may be treated as a dominant 7 chord. When you accept this as an option, now things like "major 3rd over minor 7 chord" become demystified. "Oh, he's thinking dom 7."

Hal Galper mentions, too, that great improvisors may be simultaneously reharmonizing and improvising their lines. (And superimposing rhythms, too, really, if you think about it.)

[bluewaterpig]

Yep, I understand what you mean, and I agree. Then again, the only difference between a minor 7 and dominant 7 is that natural 3rd, so if you are "thinking" D7, you are basically thinking "I'm just gonna play that natural 3rd".

On the Coltrane lick, I kind of hear that Dm7 portion as being a B major (#4) lick, which is another thing Coltrane often did. And this would be evidence of what you're saying.

[setemupjoe]

A mental game you can play is this. I use this in workshops.
Take a ii-V-I. Let's say Dm7-G7-C. Extend it over 4 bars like this.
Dm7///lG7///lC///l////l
Now introduce extra changes into the mix.
Dm7/?/l?/?/lC///l////l
Now start dropping random chords into the first question mark and find your way back to C using the other two question marks. Here are a few examples.
Dm7/Eb7/lAb7/Db7/lC///l////l
Dm7/Em7/lFm7/G7/lC///l////l
Dm7/Fm7/lBb7/Db7/lC///l////l
Dm7/Gb7/lFm7/Bb7/lC///l////l
Dm7/G7/lFm7/Bb7/lC///l////l
Dm7/Ab7/lDb7/G7/lC///l////l
Dm7/Am7/lAb7/G7/lC///l////l
Dm7/Bb7/lG7/Db7/lC///l////l
Dm7/B7/lAb7/Db7/lC///l////l

I'm using cycle of fifths, step wise motion, or third movements to try and give logical motion to all of these. Also the quality of the chord (Major, minor, 7th etc) is entirely up to the player's discretion. Try playing lines using these changes over a rhythm track of a regular ii-V-I. It allows you to break out of the routine of playing only the "accepted' notes for each chord.

Also you can do the same with bar 3 and 4 of the C chord but you get the idea from what I've done above.

[TruthHertz]

If you can show conviction and intent in a musical statement, it will count for a lot. That comes with practice, experience and familiarity with sound, yeah.
Something that might be appropriate in one situation may not fly in another, and that counts for a lot that comes from experience.
"Wrong" feels that way because I think it may come at a time when it was not intentional. When you know the full import of a given phrase, what it meant to the composer, and you can make the decision to offer an alternative, or even a compliment that is different. Sure it'll have things that are different. Who says it's wrong or will not sound good? It's up to the performer to know what sounds good and to have command of the craft so he will convey that. You play "wrong" notes and mean it, see the beauty of what you're doing and it's going to have more weight than a "perfect" set of notes with no meaning or tentatively played.
You have that and nobody's going to stop you and say "why did you play the c# on the 3rd chorus of your tune when you wrote it with a chord implying a c natural?" No, I don't think that will be the first thought. But then again...
David

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by M-ster

I believe that many (perhaps all?) of these occurrences are the result of the improvisor superimposing other harmonies on top of the stated/standard/common changes. In other words, rather than thinking, "I'm gonna play the most out notes I can get to over this next change!" the player is more likely just thinking different changes.

In the Coltrane example, the notes over the D-7 seem rather out until you consider that it's more easily explained by thinking D7 to G7 to C, rather than D-7. Now the notes become 13, 3, #9, b9 over the D chord -- it's a D7(13)(b9) riff, or D13b9, if you prefer.

Absolutely spot on.

There is no such thing as a wrong note. It is all about phrasing, rhythmic pulse and anticipation. Many harmonic situations can be implied without playing the actual chords, or playing against the chords long before they appear. Idiomatic lines and sequences are full of these ideas. This is nothing new. It is all about understanding context. Context of the actual harmony as well as the context and execution of the implied harmony.

[Marto]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

If you can show conviction and intent in a musical statement, it will count for a lot.

+1
I think this is a big part of it. There are a number of approaches to play outside the harmony of a tune but you have to get to a point where you sound like you know where you are going.
As others have already said you can play any note against any chord but you need conviction and context this is especially important with a maj 3rd over a min chord as a maj 3rd tends to over power the minor chord and create a dom7 #9 kind of sound.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by M-ster

any change may be treated as a dominant 7 chord. When you accept this as an option, now things like "major 3rd over minor 7 chord" become demystified. "Oh, he's thinking dom 7."

Hal Galper mentions, too, that great improvisors may be simultaneously reharmonizing and improvising their lines. (And superimposing rhythms, too, really, if you think about it.)

Yes Sir!!

[TruthHertz]

We do tend to learn our rules and stick to them, don't we? One rule we don't learn early on is the movement to a point. Maybe we should be taught rules as "static" rules and "rules of movement" or dynamic rules. Melody and harmony are not static things, so if it's going somewhere, the "dynamic" rule is: get there on time.
The M3 vs m3 rule is for a static, or inside, situation. That's good when you look at the movie one frame at a time, but as you move, you'll have those frames that just seem weird, for the moment. Did you ever pause a movie and the actor's face is caught in some really hideous grotesque expression? Not exactly a classic headshot, but only because it's out of dynamic context.
In 16 century counterpoint, the bastion of rules, they recognized this as a suspension. It had to be prepared and resolved. In subsequent western harmony they didn't keep the same ideas of "right" and "wrong." The music evolved and the rules followed in the wake of innovation.
Jazz changes too. Accept it. Make another rule. Sequencing, chromatic approach, anticipation, chromatic line, modal interchange, tritone sub, secondary dominant are all situations that can introduce a m3/M3 relationship; but watch the movie. It all works out in the end... if there's movement and you're in control.
Hey, if you "love the way it sounds" then maybe even as a static sound, you have movement. If you do it enough, you move towards a sound that someone will make a rule for. Schoenberg didn't come out of nowhere. He was not following the 16th century rule book. His book was movement towards a new harmony. But he did have the chops to pull it off, even then, most people didn't get it.
David

[brwnhornet59]

+1

Well said David. Merry Christmas brother!

[Billnc]

Huh, I was just going over some things and realized there is a lick I've come up with that I like using triads and a little blues lick. In passing I wind up with a flat9 over a major 7th chord. It sounds fine.

[gingerjazz]

I allways think any note is fair game as long as it is resolved properly.And as said above it needs to be played with conviction or it can sound like a mistake.

[bobby d]

All are usable in chromatic passing tones.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by M-ster

I believe that many (perhaps all?) of these occurrences are the result of the improvisor superimposing other harmonies on top of the stated/standard/common changes. In other words, rather than thinking, "I'm gonna play the most out notes I can get to over this next change!" the player is more likely just thinking different changes.

Agreed, especially as it relates to classic/older styles. I recently was transcribing the comping that Jim Hall does on "I hear a Rhapsody" w Bob Brookmyer. He voices many of the chords as dominants, even m7b5 chords, to allow for extremely smooth voice leading.

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

Yep, I understand what you mean, and I agree. Then again, the only difference between a minor 7 and dominant 7 is that natural 3rd, so if you are "thinking" D7, you are basically thinking "I'm just gonna play that natural 3rd".

On the Coltrane lick, I kind of hear that Dm7 portion as being a B major (#4) lick, which is another thing Coltrane often did. And this would be evidence of what you're saying.

I think there is more than a semantical difference between M's interpretation and yours. Technically the only difference between a m7 and a dominant 7 is the m3 vs M3, but I don't think that's at all reflective of Coltrane's thought process here.

I see the lick as playing off the following chord progression:

Abm7 Db7 |Dm7 G7 |C

A few reasons why...the notes that are occurring on the strong beats are reflective of those changes. Yes there is an F# "over' the Dm7, but occurs on a weak beak and nobody has pointed out that it quickly resolves down a half step to an F natural. The notes on the line are B, F#, F, Eb, D and it starts on beat 3. Actually if the first note was A rather than B, then it actually would be only a slightly atypical textbook bebop line for Dm7 to G7 - chord tones on the down beats, chromatic approaches TO chord tones on the upbeats. The F# simply being a chromatic approach to F - nothing that avant-garde or esoteric

But since the first note is B and not A, I also, in a sense, hear it as outlining Bmaj7#4 but there's more logic to it being from a chord of the same mode - Db7, which has a more clear function in the key of C. And again, the F is on the strong beat...the line works pretty clearly over Db7. (but honestly B is just the 13 of Dm7, it's not that crazy to see the line as 'inside' over Dm7)

Another reason why I think of this progression specifically is because a lot of Coltrane's compositions have this type of movement. bvi7 to bII7 to ii7 to V7 is very close to some of the harmonic movement in "Moment's Notice"

My point is that I think this example is logical and functional, as well as clever (it's a subV to a straight ii V) and isn't really a demonstration of your point. Like I said in the other thread, however, I have no qualms with hammering out those 'avoid' notes for whatever purpose the improviser wants and I think it's great to explore all 12 tones (or even ones in between, hah) over every chord type.

But for a better example of some of the concepts you are implying...Eric Dolphy! I transcribed just a bit of his playing on "Impressions" and there's certainly some wild stuff there. I couldn't decipher what the logic or function was in that case.

[Waso]

Originally Posted by bobby d

All are usable in chromatic passing tones.

That´s right and that´s also the reason why I think playing a Maj3 against a Minor chord or playing a Maj7 against a Dominant chord is still wrong. You are not going to play these notes on a strong beat or play them as Quarternotes.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by Waso

That´s right and that´s also the reason why I think playing a Maj3 against a Minor chord or playing a Maj7 against a Dominant chord is still wrong. You are not going to play these notes on a strong beat or play them as Quarternotes.

You absolutely can play them on strong beats, right out there in the open. I'm not talking about using these notes as passing tones.

Coltrane would blow a C# on a D7 for an entire measure, 4 beats long. He didn't stick them in as a quick passing tone and hide them away.

It's his conviction that prevents you from hearing it as being "wrong".

Think about it. There was a time in jazz when a #4 over a dominant chord was very "wrong". Miles put an end to that. We can now all agree that a #4 is really hip in that situation. Master jazz musicians strive to make good use out of the wrong notes.

[TruthHertz]

Not a solution to the debate but an interesting linguistic take on some issues of the harmonic "language."

It seems to be a rich resource I will have to explore in the weeks ahead.

Chord Progressions in Tonal Music

I don't need to say this but everyone has their own rule book they keep in their musical "back pocket"s and it really does allow you to identify yourself historically and say the kind of sound you want, where you want to be on the spectrum. You inherit a lot of rules, but in the end, you get up there, you sound like the rules, you discover how to find yourself within and in spite of the rules and then you sound like yourself. That's your rule book.
I think the more you play, the more this is true.
David

[Double 07]

Doing those two things usually just sounds bad to me, sorry. Next question.

[bluewaterpig]

Check this out. Tell me if you hear any "bad" notes in Wes' solo.

YouTube Video

[Double 07]

Hey everyone can play what they choose to play, what sounds good to their ears. That's what makes every persons style unique and special. That's all part of the beauty of this musician thing.I'm talking about what I like to hear or play when I'm playing. So definitely do and play what sounds good to you.

See I mean no offense to anyone's opinion but I will state mine. I looooong ago got rid of the stinking attitude that everybody has to agree with me. That's a form of narcissism and a sickness in my opinion.

As you probably know any note will work over over a dominant chord so what really matters is your phrasing. While I usually wont play the thing you mentioned, especially over a minor chord, really the only note that is definitely out for me is a min 3 over a maj 7.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by Double 07

Hey everyone can play what they choose to play, what sounds good to their ears.

This is a public forum. The point is to hear the experience of a lot of different people from a lot of different places. Nobody is telling you to play anything, these are all suggestions. If you don't like what you're reading, it's as simple as closing the window or just hitting the back button on your browser. Posting a comment like "no, that does not sound good" only proves that you're curious to hear somebody prove you wrong.

When you post something like "That sounds bad to me, next question", I see that as being very, very narrow minded.

The first time I heard a major 7 over a dominant, I hated it. The difference, though, is that I kept experimenting with it. Over a long period of time and revisiting it here and there, I began to really hear it as an inside sound.

If you listened to that Wes solo on 'No Blues' and you didn't hear any "wrong" notes stick out to you, then you owe it to yourself to investigate this concept, because there are major 3rds on minor 7th chords and major 7ths on dominant 7th chords in a lot of different spots in his solo.

As a student, I study the musicians that I love to listen to, and they happen to be Wes Montgomery and John Coltrane. Both of those guys are notorious for playing these "wrong" tensions, and I have always been amazed at just about every note that those guys play.

That is why I think a topic like this is worth investigating. I think that every musician should push their ear to hear something that they couldn't hear yesterday.

A phrase like "that sounds bad, so I'm not going to play it" can really limit your creativity.



From Jack Zucker's 'Sheets of Sound':

"Don't shy away from chords that sound "funny". The first time I heard the ii chord row 4 of (fig 5) (Bm7) over the G7, I hated it. It had the F# in it after all, and I was taught that there was no more wrong chord than an F# over a G7 chord. I couldn't have been more wrong. If you "live" with the Bm7 chord over the G7 for a while, you will understand how it wants to resolve and it will begin to sound more "inside," same for all the other chords in the sequence. In fact, the point is to get your ear used to hearing things that it did *NOT* hear the day before."

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by Double 07

Hey everyone can play what they choose to play, what sounds good to their ears. That's what makes every persons style unique and special.

See I mean no offense to anyone's opinion but I will state mine. I looooong ago got rid of the stinking attitude that everybody has to agree with me.

+1

Well Said Brother. Very few people in here have the wherewithal to state anything with absolute authority, and notice, THEY never do. Let us all continue to learn together and move onto to more constructive ways to share our ideas and opinions.

[wolflen]

"Don't shy away from chords that sound "funny". The first time I heard the ii chord row 4 of (fig 5) (Bm7) over the G7, I hated it. It had the F# in it after all, and I was taught that there was no more wrong chord than an F# over a G7 chord...."

a diminished7th chord sounds funny..and i have heard it thousands of times..i view it as a "break chord" .. away from the progression..but when i use it as a 7b9 chord it become very integrated in the progression then it dosent sound funny at all...same with augmented chords/scales..for the G7 i may use F# as the first note in a G augmented scale or run..its not going to alter the function of the G7 one bit..depending on where the G7 leads..it may enhance the harmony and create space for more melodic exploration..

joni mitchell played a song "all i want" on a dulcimer .. very simple chords but a very complex melody..very active..i recently heard it in a full jazz setting..lush keyboard chords being pushed by the melody and the solos were just knock out georgous..wonderful guitar work..using the energy of the melody to punch the simple original chords into harmonic wonders..there were many "altered" notes far from mitchells..but further from wrong.

play well

wolf

[Double 07]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

+1

Well Said Brother. Very few people in here have the wherewithal to state anything with absolute authority, and notice, THEY never do. Let us all continue to learn together and move onto to more constructive ways to share our ideas and opinions.

Thanks brwnhornet59 glad to see somebody get's what I was saying. I was definitely NOT trying to say that everyone has to agree with my opinion on this subject. I surely hope that I never become that arrogant.

I've seen some people post that for them, for their style, that the 4th is an "avoid note" over a maj7 chord. Well I play the 4th, and even emphasize it, on maj7 all the time. However that's just my style and it works for me, the way I play. I'm not here trying to state that everyone has to do that. That would be arrogant, narcissistic, and frankly an unhealthy state of mind. If someone else wants to avoid the 4th on major then that's great, if it works for them in their playing style I'm all for it. Yes, let's keep this a place where we can all feel free to be our brilliant selves, constructively share our ideas, learn and grow.

[brwnhornet59]

I love varying opinions, in fact I learn from it all of the time. Questioning methods and ideas is how we grow. There is no need to be pushy or overzealous when trying to make a point. I think everyone here has great ideas worthy of being shared, I just do not like intimidation. If we just edge it back a notch or two everything will flow very nice and steady and we will all learn.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by Double 07

Thanks brwnhornet59 glad to see somebody get's what I was saying. I was definitely NOT trying to say that everyone has to agree with my opinion on this subject. I surely hope that I never become that arrogant.

I've seen some people post that for them, for their style, that the 4th is an "avoid note" over a maj7 chord. Well I play the 4th, and even emphasize it, on maj7 all the time. However that's just my style and it works for me, the way I play. I'm not here trying to state that everyone has to do that. That would be arrogant, narcissistic, and frankly an unhealthy state of mind. If someone else wants to avoid the 4th on major then that's great, if it works for them in their playing style I'm all for it. Yes, let's keep this a place where we can all feel free to be our brilliant selves, constructively share our ideas, learn and grow.

Double 07, you're assuming that we're telling you to play these notes. This is a forum buddy! Don't get so defensive. Every single post in here is an opinion, you don't need to state the obvious. Don't read these things as if somebody is yelling at you and pointing a finger, demanding you to practice this stuff. Again, if you really don't like this topic, just hit the back button and go find something that you would enjoy talking about.

Just like you're saying you play the 4th and traditional chord scale theory cites it as an avoid note...maybe you should try exploring some outside harmonies where you play a major 7th on a dominant, or a major 3rd on a minor 7th. Don't abandon it so quickly, that's all. There's some solid proof out there that these wrong notes can sound incredibly sophisticated.

That's the point of this thread in the first place. We're just discussing how it's a really cool sound and it's worth trying.

[JakeAcci]

BWP, did you see my post? My point is basically, yes, anything is fair game, but I think you might not be giving enough credit to the logic behind the choices of some of the more classic players. Credit is due to the depth of their harmonic understanding, whether it's academic or intuitive.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

BWP, did you see my post? My point is basically, yes, anything is fair game, but I think you might not be giving enough credit to the logic behind the choices of some of the more classic players. Credit is due to the depth of their harmonic understanding, whether it's academic or intuitive.

What makes you say I'm not giving the classic players enough credit for their logic?

[JakeAcci]

Because I think there might be an oversimplicity to the assertion that "these extremely 'wrong' notes are key to sounding like the giants, Coltrane specifically" as you haven't really given credit to the arguments M and I presented about the presence of these notes being more related to reharmonized changes, rather than simply forcing these certain "out" notes onto the change.

I felt like I had a pretty fair critique (that I took time to try to state clearly) of your use of that Coltrane lick as an example of your point, I am surprised you didn't have a response.

[JakeAcci]

Another way to say the same thing - it might be easy to look at an unusual note inside a line and assume it's the presence of that note that makes the line interesting yet still aurally appealing, but I think you'd often find - with the more classic players - that there's a structure and logic to the approach beyond just simply including an usual note. I think that structure is often the reason why the ear accepts those (sometimes very temporary) moments of vertical dissonance.

On the other hand, some players just play out to be out - I have no qualms with that. I just don't think that was Wes's approach, nor that of early Trane.