Melodic Minor (1/2 step above the V)

[doveman]

This is my first post here ... been playing for over 40 years and sort of in a rut. Looking to hone my improvisation skills. I may be asking a lot of questions. So here goes.

In this clip ... Larry Carlton explains the use of the Melodic Minor scale used 1/2 step above the V chord as the chord progression moves towards the I. So on the E (V chord) you can go up 1/2 step and use the F MM Scale as you approach the A (I chord).

Mr 335 TV Let the intro play ... then the MM clip will start automatically

He also mentions that in a regular simple blues pattern the (I.E. Key of A) that the the A chord (I) is moving towards the D chord (IV). He states that the A is also acting as a V chord for the D as a I chord. So you can go up a 1/2 step and use the Bb MM Scale. For example ...

Mr 335 TV

I need some more cool things like this in my tool kit. Where's a good place to pick up more things like this to try?

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by doveman

This is my first post here ... been playing for over 40 years and sort of in a rut. Looking to hone my improvisation skills. I may be asking a lot of questions. So here goes.

In this clip ... Larry Carlton explains the use of the Melodic Minor scale used 1/2 step above the V chord as the chord progression moves towards the I. So on the E (V chord) you can go up 1/2 step and use the F MM Scale as you approach the A (I chord).

Mr 335 TV Let the intro play ... then the MM clip will start automatically

He also mentions that in a regular simple blues pattern the (I.E. Key of A) that the the A chord (I) is moving towards the D chord (IV). He states that the A is also acting as a V chord for the D as a I chord. So you can go up a 1/2 step and use the Bb MM Scale. For example ...

Mr 335 TV

I need some more cool things like this in my tool kit. Where's a good place to pick up more things like this to try?

Here is a book that goes over several jazz soloing concepts. It teaches about soloing based on triads, chord substitution, and even has the concept you just mentioned. In addition, it talks about using a harmonic minor scale one half step above the root of the functioning Dom 7 chord (and unless my memory fails me, it also discussed using the harmonic and melodic minor scales that are 1/2 step below also).

http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Solos-Gui...4652317&sr=8-7

It comes with a CD but the tone on that CD is horrible to my ears. Nevertheless, the CD amply illustrates how the notes sound over the different chord progressions.

Happy Holidays.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by doveman

I need some more cool things like this in my tool kit. Where's a good place to pick up more things like this to try?

Basically what he is doing is creating tension to anticipate a chord change. Let's look at some different ways you can use melodic minor to make that happen...

In a ii V I situation... Amin7- D7- Gmaj 7
(A Melodic Minor on the ii (C Melodic Minor for a ii with a b5), (C Melodic Minor, G Melodic Minor, or Eb Melodic Minor) on the V, and then back to G Major.)

You can also use the Lydian Dominant sound in a blues. To get there, you play Melodic Minor up a fifth. So for instance F MM over a static Bb7. This will give you the same notes as Bb Mixolydian, but with a raised 4th.

[Nikkorico_03]

Emily Remler has instructional videos on Youtube explaining how she plays over dominant chords. She only thinks of dominant chords in two categories; it's either resolving to the I (where you use the MM up a half-step) or it's not resolving (static chord, or maybe like Girl from Ipadema, when it doesn't resolve to the I) which is where you use the MM up a fifth, which gives a Lydian Dominant sound as the post above said.

[gingerjazz]

Hi Doveman.im on the same page as jmstritt with the use of Lydian dominant over the blues,i have always thought of those blues chords as dominants that never really resolve,so to my ears that begs for the Lydian dominant sound,i like to leave the altered scale(mm up a half step)for the resolving dominants.Others may disagree.

[gingerjazz]

Yes ,Nikkorico beat me to it plus one on the emily remler videos,she is one of my most favorite and inspiring jazz guitar players,so sad she is gone.Also check out the remembering emily remler site,there are some lessons on there that a student has made available to download,you might like them too.

[doveman]

Emily has a lot of links out there ... can you point me to the ones about the dominant chords you mention? Good stuff ... thanks ...

[gingerjazz]

I think the remler you tube video of latin jazz is the one that covers the dominant chord stuff.As for which lessons on the remembering emily site cover that stuff i really cant remember which ones they are,sorry about that.

[Franklin52]

Originally Posted by doveman

Emily has a lot of links out there ... can you point me to the ones about the dominant chords you mention? Good stuff ... thanks ...

Take a look here:

Guitar Scales | The Altered Scale For Guitar

[JakeAcci]

Doveman, there are a lot of tricks, but I'd offer the suggestion to think of the issue in a different way.

These tricks come from the music, what people actually play. It's my opinion (and not always a shared opinion) that it makes the most musical, organic sense to just go straight to the source and transcribe the players (of any instrument) that you like and attempt to analyze what they are doing.

When you do this you:
-train your ears
-learn their rhythms and phrasing
-see a variety of harmonic/melodic devices and HOW those devices are used in a musical phrase
-get to experience beautiful music "up close" and be a participant
-come to your own conclusions about what you like, what devices you want to use, and develop your own unique interpretations

When you just get a book or a tip you have something potentially interesting to explore, and that's great, but the musical applications aren't always as concrete and definitely not as organic.

I just personally like at least attempting to pursue things in the most organic/musical way possible.

All that being said, some tricks(!):

ii7 V7 I is the most common, but it's simply a cadence to I, and while soloing you can superimpose a different cadence and it will generally resolve just as well. for example(s):

IV iv I (any kind of 7th/6th works on the iv and IV)

iv bVII7 I

II7 V7 I

ii7 bII7 I

II7 bII7 I

bVII7 VII7 I

bvi7 bII7 I

or you could replace the ii7 V7 with one chord:

V7

bII7

bVII7

VII7

bIImaj7

iv6

sometimes instead of ii7 V7 Imaj7 you could get away with ii7 #iidim7 iii7

as for scales, I often like the following scale over a dominant when going for an altered sound:

b9 #9 3 #5 b7

This too, 4 note scale:

b5 b6 b7 b9

a common suggestion for playing over say G7 leading to Cmaj7 is to play Bbm pentatonic scale on the G7 and then possible Bm pentatonic on the Cmaj7 , but I actually haven't played around with that all too much.

So, tricks, concepts...but most of them I came to from transcribing recordings!

[doveman]

Fair enough ... but I still like to learn this way too. I appreciate the input.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

sometimes instead of ii7 V7 Imaj7 you could get away with ii7 #iidim7 iii7

as for scales, I often like the following scale over a dominant when going for an altered sound:

b9 #9 3 #5 b7

This too, 4 note scale:

b5 b6 b7 b9

a common suggestion for playing over say G7 leading to Cmaj7 is to play Bbm pentatonic scale on the G7 and then possible Bm pentatonic on the Cmaj7 , but I actually haven't played around with that all too much.

So, tricks, concepts...but most of them I came to from transcribing recordings!

ii7 #iidim7 iii7, that is a great way of doing a ii V I sub. I also like your 4 note scale. As for the Bb- pent and B- pent I have played with them as well.

The b9 b3 b5 #5 b7 of Bb against G7alt sound great. Playing a minor 1/3 above the root of the dom is a great way to imply MM.

I dig the lydian sound of B- pent over CM7.

You can also go for the double lydian sound when implying CM7. use the cycle of 5ths to guide you. Play F#- pent against it. F#- pent would Give G a lydian sound, so a 5th above C and you got it. You could also play a G traid add 6 against the CM7. Lots of fun.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

... just go straight to the source and transcribe the players (of any instrument) that you like and attempt to analyze what they are doing.

When you do this you:
-train your ears
-learn their rhythms and phrasing
-see a variety of harmonic/melodic devices and HOW those devices are used in a musical phrase
-get to experience beautiful music "up close" and be a participant
-come to your own conclusions about what you like, what devices you want to use, and develop your own unique interpretations

This.

[doveman]

I transcribe too ... but love to have someone say ... I do this ... because it sounds like that ... and here's why. Now you try it. Not a bad way either.

[brwnhornet59]

You need to do both if you really want to understand. The main point of transcription, IMO, is to see how the artist thinks, what musical devices were they using to go from point A to point B? Where and how were they drawing from? How was it phrased? Were they just slamming notes or were there rests? Were they ahead of the beat or behind when they phrased that awesome line? Some of the best lines are anticipated long before the changes, how does this affect the harmony? This kind of insight is invaluable when trying to develop your own voice, much less an understanding of what is going on, at least it is for me.

[AmundLauritzen]

I'll be posting a lesson or two on the altered scale on my YouTube page in the near future. I've been planning these lessons for a while, and I'll be covering a few tricks that can be applied in a situation like that to avoid the typical scale like runs. I'll provide a few cliche phrases, but also some original ideas of mine on how to get the most out of the scale and to use it in a musical way.
I've been working on the altered scale for a long time, and I think I have some good stuff to share. I'll post a link when it's online, probably in early january some time.

To me, the most bang for the buck with any concept is to learn true and tested phrases. Then, the player will dissect the concepts that make up that phrase and try to find out what makes it tick. All the components of the phrase can then be utilized in new and creative ways. I'll be doing a full series on soloing over altered chords with applications for the altered scale, the symmetrical diminished, minor pentatonic, minor 6th pentatonic and whole tone scale to start with. I'm planning on doing arpeggio substitutions and superimpositions in the future. These are idiomatic devices used by modern day jazz musicians and are true and tested in the field. I'll be watching this thread and maybe make a list of things to include in those lessons from whats inquired about in the thread. I'm no expert, but I'd say my vocabulary is decent and I think I have some good stuff to share.
If there is any interest for this, I'll put it high on my priority.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

The b9 b3 b5 #5 b7 of Bb against G7alt sound great. Playing a minor 1/3 above the root of the dom is a great way to imply MM.

I'm confused...b9 b3 b5 #5 b7 of Bb? B Db E F# Ab over G7?

A minor 1/3 above the root? Like, playing a m3 up above the root, but playing a what?

You can also go for the double lydian sound when implying CM7. use the cycle of 5ths to guide you. Play F#- pent against it. F#- pent would Give G a lydian sound, so a 5th above C and you got it.

You can, but I think a good rule of thumb with these things is - learn to sing it first. I have a vague rule for myself that I try not to play anything in a solo that I wouldn't be able to sing on pitch at about 1/4 the tempo

[doveman]

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

I'll be posting a lesson or two on the altered scale on my YouTube page in the near future. ...

I've been planning these lessons for a while, and I'll be covering a few tricks that can be applied in a situation like that to avoid the typical scale like runs. ...

To me, the most bang for the buck with any concept is to learn true and tested phrases. Then, the player will dissect the concepts that make up that phrase and try to find out what makes it tick. All the components of the phrase can then be utilized in new and creative ways. ...

If there is any interest for this, I'll put it high on my priority.

Yes ... I would be interested. I have been playing since the '60s ... pretty much had my sound by the '80s. Just looking for some new stuff ... just like you said ... pitch something my way and I'll take what I can from it and try to fold it into what I do. I'll certainly still sound like me ... hopefully with a few new spices.

[cosmic gumbo]

Originally Posted by doveman

Where's a good place to pick up more things like this to try?

Jazz Guitar Lessons, Tabs, Chords, Licks, Riffs (Site Map)

[brwnhornet59]

[quote=JakeAcci;189613]I'm confused...b9 b3 b5 #5 b7 of Bb? B Db E F# Ab over G7?

A minor 1/3 above the root? Like, playing a m3 up above the root, but playing a what?



I did not say that well did I Jake? Sorry about that.

I was simply giving the tensions that Bb- pent gave when used against a G Dom. Some of the heavy pent heads I know use this scale exclusively to play against a alt Dom.

They will play a, minor pent up a minor 1/3 above the root.

I should have written it clearer. My bad.

As for the double lydian, man I hear it like no tomorrow now.

[JakeAcci]

[quote=brwnhornet59;189643]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I'm confused...b9 b3 b5 #5 b7 of Bb? B Db E F# Ab over G7?

A minor 1/3 above the root? Like, playing a m3 up above the root, but playing a what?



I did not say that well did I Jake? Sorry about that.

I was simply giving the tensions that Bb- pent gave when used against a G Dom. Some of the heavy pent heads I know use this scale exclusively to play against a alt Dom.

They will play a, minor pent up a minor 1/3 above the root.

I should have written it clearer. My bad.

As for the double lydian, man I hear it like no tomorrow now.

Oh ok, yes, the minor pentatonic up a minor third from the root of a dominant chord. You threw me off because you wrote "The b9 b3 b5 #5 b7 of Bb against G7alt" - so the b9, b3, b5, #5, and b7 of Bb are the notes I wrote...I get what you mean now...it's the b9, #9, b5, #5, and b7 of G, but the 1, b3, 4, 5, and b7 of Bb.

Got it, same page now.

[brwnhornet59]

[quote=JakeAcci;189645]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Oh ok, yes, the minor pentatonic up a minor third from the root of a dominant chord. You threw me off because you wrote "The b9 b3 b5 #5 b7 of Bb against G7alt" - so the b9, b3, b5, #5, and b7 of Bb are the notes I wrote...I get what you mean now...it's the b9, #9, b5, #5, and b7 of G, but the 1, b3, 4, 5, and b7 of Bb.

Got it, same page now.

Yeah!! What he said.

[bluewaterpig]

Back to the original post, I'm a firm and strong believer that you should learn the "melodic minor scale a half step up from the V" as what it really is: the altered scale.

You should train your ear to really hear what it is that you're actually playing. You aren't playing a jazz minor (melodic minor) sound at all. You're playing an altered sound.

You should really try your hardest to get your ear to hear these tensions on the top line:


Tensions on V b9 #9 3 #4 b13 b7 1

Mel. Min. Scal 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7

Actual Notes F G Ab Bb C D E

[doveman]

I spent the morning rereading Don Mock's book "Melodic Minor Revealed" and he mentions the same option that Larry Carlton mentioned in the original post video. Don Mock also mentions "down a whole step" and "up a forth" versions. I've seen this same thing in several other books. I haven't hooked up the looper just yet but it's actually making some sense. Is there a real disadvantage or advantage to learning it this way? Why would guys of this stature teach it this way?

But so I can understand: You mention the tensions on the altered E7 above. So how would you restate what LC is saying when he says A (I) to the D (IV) and the E (V) to the A (I)? What he is saying ... I think ... is that using the BbMM on the first progression and the FMM on the second progression is the tool he's teaching. Is there a way to say it simply for those two instances ... the way you are suggesting? Really trying to learn because I like the sound of it.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by doveman

I spent the morning rereading Don Mock's book "Melodic Minor Revealed" and he mentions the same option that Larry Carlton mentioned in the original post video. Don Mock also mentions "down a whole step" and "up a forth" versions. I've seen this same thing in several other books. I haven't hooked up the looper just yet but it's actually making some sense. Is there a real disadvantage or advantage to learning it this way? Why would guys of this stature teach it this way?

But so I can understand: You mention the tensions on the altered E7 above. So how would you restate what LC is saying when he says A (I) to the D (IV) and the E (V) to the A (I)? What he is saying ... I think ... is that using the BbMM on the first progression and the FMM on the second progression is the tool he's teaching. Is there a way to say it simply for those two instances ... the way you are suggesting? Really trying to learn because I like the sound of it.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I think a lot of people are missing a crucial part of this.

It's probably obvious to some people, but not to others. Everybody should realize that playing a melodic minor scale starting a half step above the V IS an altered scale. The altered scale is what most advanced players use on a V7 (among countless other things).

The altered scale is just a mode of the melodic minor (the 7th mode). So just like when you play a major scale starting from the 2nd note and it becomes a dorian scale, when you play a melodic minor scale (or jazz minor) from the 7th, you're playing an altered scale.

[doveman]

I'm just looking for something I can remember.

Don Mock's book teaches the Altered Scale (7th mode). So when I hook up the looper and check out these "1/2 step up", "step down" and "up a 4th" methods. I'll compare them to that scale too. I don't want to get overwhelmed with options and then not be able to remember any of them. I'll have to choose some way to access it.

Maybe they just consider this an easier way to remember it? I would wonder why so many would teach this way otherwise? I don't know enough to say. After I get the looper and run through it a few times, it might be clearer.

[bluewaterpig]

Doveman,

I now see what you're asking after watching that video.

What Larry Carlton is saying is that you can use the altered scale any time that a Dominant 7 is functioning as a V7, so in other words, any time a Dominant 7 is moving to a chord that's a 5th (or 4th) away (like a V resolving so a I).

It won't always be V going to I though. Just like he said, in a blues, the I7 works because it's moving to the IV7, with is a fifth/fourth away. The chord that it's moving to can be any quality too.

[doveman]

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

Doveman,

I now see what you're asking after watching that video.

What Larry Carlton is saying is that you can use the altered scale any time that a Dominant 7 is functioning as a V7, so in other words, any time a Dominant 7 is moving to a chord that's a 5th (or 4th) away (like a V resolving so a I).

It won't always be V going to I though. Just like he said, in a blues, the I7 works because it's moving to the IV7, with is a fifth/fourth away. The chord that it's moving to can be any quality too.

That was making sense to me ... so I'll just try that to begin with ... but I am interested in what you were saying too.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by doveman

That was making sense to me ... so I'll just try that to begin with ... but I am interested in what you were saying too.

There's no reason to separate them. In fact, now is the best time to do what I was saying because you're truly learning the scale for the first time.

What I'm saying is that you don't want to learn the scale as the jazz minor. You want to hear it as an altered scale, with the tensions of b9, #9, 3, #4, b13, b7, 1.

And by the way, not to nitpick, but we really should be calling the minor scale that's being used the "jazz minor", NOT the "melodic minor". Melodic minor has b7 and b6 on the way down.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by doveman

I spent the morning rereading Don Mock's book "Melodic Minor Revealed" and he mentions the same option that Larry Carlton mentioned in the original post video. Don Mock also mentions "down a whole step" and "up a forth" versions. I've seen this same thing in several other books. I haven't hooked up the looper just yet but it's actually making some sense. Is there a real disadvantage or advantage to learning it this way? Why would guys of this stature teach it this way?

But so I can understand: You mention the tensions on the altered E7 above. So how would you restate what LC is saying when he says A (I) to the D (IV) and the E (V) to the A (I)? What he is saying ... I think ... is that using the BbMM on the first progression and the FMM on the second progression is the tool he's teaching. Is there a way to say it simply for those two instances ... the way you are suggesting? Really trying to learn because I like the sound of it.

Dons Books are GREAT! Sid Jacobs has a really good one as well.

The point that needs to be realized is not what the scale/mode of scales, themselves mean, you need to put into perspective what they mean when playing over a particular harmony. Yo also need to learn the scale and its modes and be able to apply them in what fashion the situation calls for. If I am playing G alt, I am not thinking Ab MM. If I am playing G7#11, (lydian b7), I am not thinking D MM etc...

Short hand memory tags are a great way of remembering tensions on the fly, but what really counts is that you understand what it means and why you are using it that way in the first place. Context is everything. MM is a very powerful tool, as are many note collections, but why are we using them this way? That is the question and the key to the answer!