ii-V-I Trick: Simple, Effective, and Idiot-proof EASY

[bluewaterpig]

I'm sure a lot of people already know this little trick, but I'm surprised that I never really heard about it until lately.

We all tend to think of just a major scale when playing over a ii-V-I. It's easy to think about, and it fits, although it doesn't give you the hippest sounding lines.

Here's a great trick; over the V chord, move your major scale down a half step. That's it. It ends up giving you a pretty hip sound.

Example:

Chords: ii - V - I

Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7

Scale used: C - B - C

[monk]

B major over G7?

B=3, C#=#4, D#=#5, E=13, F#=maj7, G#(Ab)=b9, A#=#9.

That major seventh (F#) isn't going to sound very good against a G7.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by monk

B major over G7?

B=3, C#=#4, D#=#5, E=13, F#=maj7, G#(Ab)=b9, A#=#9.

That major seventh (F#) isn't going to sound very good against a G7.

Tell that to John Coltrane.

We're all taught to obey those traditional chord tone rules, but the hippest sound tends to be when they get broken. One of the most famous Coltrane tricks is that he played minor runs built off of the 3, 5, 7, and b9 of a dominant chord. So he would play a B minor scale over G7, which still has an F#. In fact, he would lay on the major 7th of a dominant chord for an entire measure.

Read the last paragraph of this article:

Sheets of Sound Lessons Page

Jack's article on that page is a really, really great way to approach improvisation.

[bluewaterpig]

Here's that paragraph:

"Try different parts of different tables as well. Don't shy away from chords that sound "funny". The first time I heard the ii chord row 4 of (fig 5) (Bm7) over the G7, I hated it. It had the F# in it after all, and I was taught that there was no more wrong chord than an F# over a G7 chord. I couldn't have been more wrong. If you "live" with the Bm7 chord over the G7 for a while, you will understand how it wants to resolve and it will begin to sound more "inside," same for all the other chords in the sequence. In fact, the point is to get your ear used to hearing things that it did *NOT* hear the day before."

[FatJeff]

There's nothing special about the B against the G7. It's just an out sound. Any old out sound will work great if you "pull it back in" with a convincing resolution to the tonic.

[bluewaterpig]

There's "nothing special" about an outside sound? What do you consider to be "special" then?

[texasjazz]

C major - B major - C major... sounds good, I like C major - Db major - C major too. I really LOVE Ab Melodic Minor over the G7 which in theory is Db Lydian Dominant.

Here's a cool one too, D minor pent, Eb minor pent, Eminor pent kinda similar to the trick you shared with us

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by texasjazz

I really LOVE Ab Melodic Minor over the G7 which in theory is Db Lydian Dominant

Ab melodic minor over G is a G Altered scale (7th mode of a melodic minor scale).

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Have we converged on the answer?

B major's relative minor is G#. G# jazz minor ("melodic minor") has the same note set as G altered.

I think I like the sound of the altered scale over G7 better, but that's just me.

[Bailz]

play everything all the time over everything I say.

[AmundLauritzen]

Well, I think going from the most inside sound possible to the most outside sound possible can sound wrong if you don't play with extreme confidence and 100% awareness of note choice. Also, it can work to gradually release tension instead of going from full blown altered + maj7 on the dominant to a total inside sound. Various lydian applications gives a partial landing platform before completely resolving. I like B minor pentatonic on Cmaj7, or A minor 6th pentatonic. Then I like to resolve to a stable chord tone: 1,3 or 5.

These are just guidelines and ideas of course.

Personally, I love the sound of the maj7th on a dom7th altered chord, but it is very hard to make it sound convincing. But when it happens, man, it really happens!

To me, all the different altered applications have their distinct personality. Superlocrian can get old fast. Pentatonic from the b3 of the dom7th gives you all the alterations with no inside chord tones. It facilitates different intervallic combinations. Diminished gets old fast, but you can make it interesting by using its major or minor triads. There are m6 pentatonic and whole tone pentatonic applications for altered dominants as well. I haven't dived into those yet, but they can give some fresh intervallic combinations.
I think the really good players know all the possibilites and can hear it all, so they know how to use variety when going outside.

[brwnhornet59]

If you want to infer Coltrane just divide the octave in 1/3rds.

By that reckoning, playing B major, G major or Eb major would all work, (which they will to one varying degree or another, depending on how you treat it and resolve). I personally would make all of those keys Dom. Then the parent keys would be C, E and G#.

Notice G# lets you imply G alt?

I personally love playing F MM over the ii V as well. I like resolving using a short G alt phrase into C.


Of course C MM works well over the ii V. I like Dorian b9 over the ii, Myxo b6 over the V.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

If you want to infer Coltrane just divide the octave in 1/3rds.

By that reckoning, playing B major, G major or Eb major would all work,

It's actually in 1/4ths (minor 3rds).

That concept is a very, very valuable thing to understand for any jazz musician. You should read the article in the link that I posted. He takes it one step further.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

It's actually in 1/4ths (minor 3rds).

That concept is a very, very valuable thing to understand for any jazz musician. You should read the article in the link that I posted. He takes it one step further.

The Coltrane changes were built in major 3rds.

If you want to get into Dodecaphonics, the division of the octave in 1/4s that is wonderful as well. But that is another story.

The division of the octave in 1/4's allows you to look at the dim scale as Dom7 b9 allowing 4 parent keys to draw from.

Ab B D F, which are from the b9 of the Dom, would be the dim scale.

G Bb Db E are the V7's

C Eb Gb A, are the parent keys to draw from using modal interchange etc you can also use the rel minors as well..

[bluewaterpig]

Ah, I thought you were referring to dodecaphonics in the earlier post. Coltrane often used this approach in his improv.

[brwnhornet59]

I suppose I should have looked at your string of notes closer. You indeed were talking about minor 3rds.

I just saw you infer Coltrane's name and took my analysis from there. LOL

BTW, try what I was talking about in my first post as well. You can draw the same kind of parallels in it or any symmetrical division. You can divide the octave in 1/2, (tritones), and draw from that as well. Take the 4 note arp from each tritone and make a scale from those 8 notes. Much fun indeed!

[Kman]

Don't worry about B major. Stay in the key of C the whole time, but think embellishments. The great bebop lines adhere to the key for the most part but they throw in little tricks, mostly chromatics within the key. You have to learn the language to understand. There are no shortcuts.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by Kman

Don't worry about B major. Stay in the key of C the whole time, but think embellishments. The great bebop lines adhere to the key for the most part but they throw in little tricks, mostly chromatics within the key. You have to learn the language to understand. There are no shortcuts.

Lol, c'mon man. This thread was created to show a quick little trick, nothing more than that. This isn't the end all penultimate approach to jazz improv. There are endless approaches to a ii-V-I. This is just a small, stupid little trick that you don't have to think hard about and ends up working very well.

[JakeAcci]

I think we're all cross-talking levels here, talking about different points along the same path in terms of how to handle Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

Below is simplistic list/progression and leaves a lot out but:

barely hanging on by a thread: playing in C major

very beginnings of extremely basic jazz vocabulary: playing in C major but emphasizing chord tones of each chord

actual beginnings of basic jazz vocabulary: emphasizing chord tones and using some chromaticism to get to those chord tones

more bebop and closer to what you actually hear on classic recordings: the above but emphasizing alterations on the V, and superimposing other chords on top of the ii V I. Using some form of melodic minor/altered scale draws from this - you're just playing alterations (#9, b9, #11, #5) on the V, or possibly superimposing different harmony over the progression.

a little more 'out': superimposing different harmony over the progression that doesn't necessarily work when analyzed vertically, but still is independently logical and functional harmony. For example, over Dm7 G7 to Cmaj7 one could improvise off of D7 Db7 Cmaj7. An F# is 'out' over Dm7, but if the line is strong and resolves well, it won't matter. You could play off of a variety of cadences...F Fm7 Cmaj7, Fm7 Bb7 Cmaj7, Dm7 D#dim7 Em7, Abm7 Db7 Cmaj7...they all resolve to C, if the line is strong it works well, depends on context of course...


I think the next level, which was kind of hinted at in the original post, is playing off of harmony (or pitch collections) that doesn't/don't necessarily function in a logical 'cadence' fashion. So over Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 you could play well...anything you wanted to, if you heard it properly. How about Abmaj7 Bmaj7 Cmaj7...Monk's music is full of dominants resolving in strange ways, how about Ab7 Gb7 Cmaj7....E7 D7 Cmaj7?

Going along with that, you could have melodic-intervallic schemes that resolve again because of internal logic (and just because you feel like it) and there could be plenty of vertical clashes, major 7ths over dominant chords, 4ths held out over maj7 chords, whatever, but the lines can sound great. The thing is...it takes a lot of work to learn how to hear all that stuff properly.

I play with a sax player who is a bit of a genius with perfect pitch. He likes 'bitonality,' trying to really hear and play in two keys simultaneously. He's big on simply playing things a major third down from where they are supposed to be...then maybe resolving them and maybe not. He gets bored staying in one key...I play Giant steps with him and staying on the original changes is boring for him so he makes up his own. Go figure.

The fact is that melodic minor and the major modes create everything that is 'inside' in conventional jazz harmony, but there is so much out there that really sounds great. The player just has to do the work of hearing it.

So, BWP's suggestion of playing B ionian over a G7 seems just as logical as anything else to me. G altered scale is a clear choice, so it's more common...B ionian is less common, which to me makes it something interesting to explore...

However, yes, for basic jazz meat and potatoes vocabulary, bird, early coltrane, wes, pass, etc, embellishing chord tones and alterations of the V and resolving to chord tones is the general lingo. Whatever way you want to think of "G altered" scale on the G is a sensible choice and easy way to get some more tense sounds. I like the 'in sen' pentatonic for a G7alt - the scale is F Ab Bb Cb Eb...I use it a lot, it is 'inside' but the larger intervals are pleasing to me as a 'default' choice for an altered dominant.

I hope somebody actually reads this, hah

[bluewaterpig]

Well said Jake.

A big part of the original concept that I posted in this thread is something that Wes called "dominant vs. tonic", or as others call it "tonic and not tonic". I'm sure a lot of us have heard respected jazz musicians talk about how they didn't have anything like the sophisticated jazz education that we have today, and this was part of the old system.

Wes used a system in his improv where he saw all of his lines as fitting into one of two categories; either dominant or tonic (not dominant). Tonic was just playing inside a change, like playing A mixolydian over A7. The finesse came in the dominant part of this system.

Dominant was playing some sort of outside sound, and for Wes, he frequently played in a key a half step below. All over his blues playing, he'll play a scale a half step below the given change. The trick was timing it well, which was usually right before the change took place. For instance, in an F blues, right before the IV was coming (Bb7), Wes would play an A major scale. Some players also call this "side stepping".

This method of thinking makes sense when you consider where it came from. Back then, uneducated players only knew that they wanted to create tension over a given change, and what better way to create tension is there than playing a half step off target?

My point is that this whole B major over G7 does somewhat fit into that tonic vs. dominant system. Seeing the whole ii-V-I as being in C, B major is obviously a half step below, hence the side stepping.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

Well said Jake.

A big part of the original concept that I posted in this thread is something that Wes called "dominant vs. tonic", or as others call it "tonic and not tonic". I'm sure a lot of us have heard respected jazz musicians talk about how they didn't have anything like the sophisticated jazz education that we have today, and this was part of the old system.

Wes used a system in his improv where he saw all of his lines as fitting into one of two categories; either dominant or tonic (not dominant). Tonic was just playing inside a change, like playing A mixolydian over A7. The finesse came in the dominant part of this system.

Dominant was playing some sort of outside sound, and for Wes, he frequently played in a key a half step below. All over his blues playing, he'll play a scale a half step below the given change. The trick was timing it well, which was usually right before the change took place. For instance, in an F blues, right before the IV was coming (Bb7), Wes would play an A major scale. Some players also call this "side stepping".

This method of thinking makes sense when you consider where it came from. Back then, uneducated players only knew that they wanted to create tension over a given change, and what better way to create tension is there than playing a half step off target?

My point is that this whole B major over G7 does somewhat fit into that tonic vs. dominant system. Seeing the whole ii-V-I as being in C, B major is obviously a half step below, hence the side stepping.

I'm interested in reading about how Wes divided things into what I like to call Tonic or Anti- Tonic. Where did you read this. My own understanding of this seems a little different to what you're saying. For example, the A7 mixo would still be Anti Tonic (as would Alt scale or other "out" sub). Tonic is a bag where I, iii and vi ideas are interchangeable. Anti Tonic is anything to do with ii, V or vii. The IV can fit either bag depending on context and hence I like to call ideas that work against Tonic as well as Anti Tonic "Ambi Tonic". Eg any diatonic 13 arp or embellished pattern of, as well as heavy chromaticism.

So to hear that Wes liked to reduce things to Tonic and Not Tonic could mean it in the sense above, or in another sense entirely, as in "in" vs "out". Either way I'd like to see/read your source for this. Is it in some book? (sorry if this is off topic!).

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I'm interested in reading about how Wes divided things into what I like to call Tonic or Anti- Tonic. Where did you read this. My own understanding of this seems a little different to what you're saying. For example, the A7 mixo would still be Anti Tonic (as would Alt scale or other "out" sub). Tonic is a bag where I, iii and vi ideas are interchangeable. Anti Tonic is anything to do with ii, V or vii. .

That would be true if it was a song centered around a Imaj7.

I said A7, like in a blues. That could be I7.


Playing A Mixo was "inside" or what was supposed to be happening at the moment. It doesn't call for tension until it changes to another dominant (IV7).

Playing a halft step below, sometimes above, is the "outside" sound at that moment. Like this:


I7 .............................................. - IV7

A7 ............................................... - D7


A Mixo ...................... C# maj/min .. D Mixo

Tonic .......................... Dominant .... Tonic

[princeplanet]

Ah yes, well with blues it can swing either way. Against I7 you could treat it (among many things) as mixo, or you could treat it as "non" mixo, eg, Major blues (6th, not b7).

So there's no book or article you can point me to where Wes talks about Tonic/Non Tonic?

[Kman]

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

Lol, c'mon man. This thread was created to show a quick little trick, nothing more than that. This isn't the end all penultimate approach to jazz improv. There are endless approaches to a ii-V-I. This is just a small, stupid little trick that you don't have to think hard about and ends up working very well.

I don't like that there is no F in that B major scale. I was mainly trying to point out that great jazz lines are very often hidden right in that old major scale. People go searching for all kinds of tricks, but I guess that's what makes it fun. Whatever works for you.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

So there's no book or article you can point me to where Wes talks about Tonic/Non Tonic?

All the information I have on Wes' system was taught to me by Berklee professor Richie Hart. He's a well known expert on Wes, having studied with George Benson for a decade. He explains it all in the Wes Montgomery lab at Berklee.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

All the information I have on Wes' system was taught to me by Berklee professor Richie Hart. He's a well known expert on Wes, having studied with George Benson for a decade. He explains it all in the Wes Montgomery lab at Berklee.

Oh, I see. Thanks.

[mattymel]

I'm constantly blown away by how often I hear somebody do something that sounds "awesome" to me only to transcribe it and find out that the notes I thought were so cool sounding were actually just chord tones that were noticeably out of tune. Major 7ths over dominants is one of the most common sounds in soloing post 1965. not as easy to analyze in a book, but thats why most books are lame.

[bluewaterpig]

It's really remarkable how true that is.

Wes even played major 3rd on minor 7th chords. When you hear it, it just sounds like some sort of outside sound, doesn't sound "wrong" at all. It's really crazy how some artists are able to do that.

Check out Wes' solo over 'No Blues' (Smokin' at the Half Note). He puts major 7ths on dominants and major 3rds on minor 7ths all over the place.


An example of each:

At 0:45 he plays an F#maj7 arp. over a D7 (C# = Maj7 of D7)

At 0:47 he plays a B natural over a Gm7.

YouTube Video

[AmundLauritzen]

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

All the information I have on Wes' system was taught to me by Berklee professor Richie Hart. He's a well known expert on Wes, having studied with George Benson for a decade. He explains it all in the Wes Montgomery lab at Berklee.

Does he have a book or video lesson on the subject? I'm a die hard Wes fan!

[brwnhornet59]

http://http://jazztimes.com/articles...tapes-in-march

Thought I would throw this in just in case nobody saw this before.