Need2Know

[Jarred]

Hey, i've been playing guitar guitar for a short while now - 3 years and have been into jazz, I had a jazz guitar tutor in the begining but I think I had to stop cuz of the money and stuff, but i've been trying to get in to it, I just would like some advice on how to start improvising, tips on how I can do that in the jazz context... And I know you have to learn your scales, and arpeggio's and chords and stuff but to actually start improvising over a given bit of chords and to make it sound jazzy, I understand about playing chord tones, and chromatic lines aswell as approaching notes chromaticly, and playing modes, inside and out etc. and pentatonics and whatever, but just affew experienced tips on how to maybe apply this and/or how to start getting into actualy properly starting to improvise properly as a jazz guitarist, any help would be greatly appreciated, please, thank you.
Jarred.

[cosmic gumbo]

Just try to play what you hear in your head.

[mr. beaumont]

This is very difficult to answer without hearing you play.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Just try to play what you hear in your head.

Ha! All I can hear when I do that is the voice of the dog telling me to mow the lawn. And that's not easy because I don't even have a lawn.
David

[Ged]

There are a variety of 'methods'; some, like Bruno and Conti claim that scales and stuff are not necessary. They both have interesting an useful methods worth considering. On the other hand, there's the school that says that the only way to improvise properly is know the scale and modes etc.

You've got to ask yourself what your own 'learning style' is and choose whichever method fits. I've seen (and followed most of the Conti stuff) and learned a lot from Bruno, but my own learning style is most certainly knowing the scales and modes. For me (and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else what to do), it puts in my head a mental picture of the fretboard so that I can automatically go where I feel a note should be played.

But more importantly, I can hear in my head every note fractionally before I choose to play it simply because I know where I am on the fretboard. You should be able to hear in your head what a particular modes or scale sounds like, and it's this freedom that gives you a wide range of notes to chose from.

I suspect that for all their 'no modes, no scales' approach, both Conti and Bruno can do this...and one hell of a lot better than me!

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Jarred

just affew experienced tips on how to maybe apply this and/or how to start getting into actualy properly starting to improvise properly as a jazz guitarist...

This question is a lightning rod for every type of opinion on what jazz and improvisation is made of. You would have just as much luck using the search function on this forum and read over some of the many other threads addressing this very issue. Have you asked yourself what you're trying to do when you solo? Create melody? Follow the chords? Create sounds that swing? Express yourself on an emotional level? Strictly? I think many people might say know the harmony of a piece and then learn many pieces. It might be helpful to be able to train your ear so as a piece goes by you can identify the harmonic structure (That's the I chord, now that's the V7 going to the IIm and that means the I is coming up...) If you know, hear and feel this, then you may ask yourself "what do I do with this knowledge to create a solo?" and there you have the process of building your lexicon and syntax.
This can also be stated as "Know what's going on so you can hear what's coming up, and get to know what your many options are in getting there."

Your question is a bit open ended and general to keep this thread from getting really diffuse, but maybe that's not a bad thing...
David

[Drumbler]

One thing that is helpful is to familiarize yourself with the different song forms used in jazz.

Read up here: Jazz Theory

Take some time and look at charts of tunes of these various types. Use the Vanilla Changes here: Index

Within each type notice the common characteristics.

Once you become familiar with each type you will be able to quickly recognize it. Then you can apply similar improvising techniques to that type.

There are some unique tunes also like Giant Steps.

[jmstritt]

The internet has put a tremendous amount of information out there. To me, there is no way around knowing your scales, chords and arpeggios. The first thing that you need to get under your fingers is the major scale, learn it all over the neck. There are a ton of different ways to do this, 3 note per string, CAGED, Berklee, etc. which one you pick isn't as important as the fact that you pick one and go with it (I primarily use CAGED, but really borrow from all of them). Then learn all over your major7, dom7, minor7, and min7b5 arpeggios. Again which fingering system you use isn't as important as the fact that you just do it. That alone should give you the ability to START making some lines that actually sound like jazz.

As far as taking these things and making them work in a jazz context, I teach my students to start by using guide tones. It is a simple concept. The 3rd and 7th of the chord determine the quality of the chord, therefore they are the most important notes to establish. (For example if you have a c chord with an E and a B, you have a Cmaj7, if you have a Eb and a Bb, you have a Cmin7, etc). You can use these guide tones to connect chords together, and then fill in the rest with other chord tones, scale fragments, digital patterns, whatever you like.

Example.

Gmin7 C7 Fmaj 7

G F E Bb A

There are your guide tones, now you can fill in the blanks...

A Bb D F E G A Bb A C E G

See how it starts to sound like jazz? In theory you should be able to solo without an accompianist and the listener should still be able to recognize the chord changes.


After you get this down with the major scale, do the same thing with the Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor scales. Learn them all over the fretboard, and learn all of their arpeggios. Incorporating these scales will help you get more altered sounds and expand your vocabulary. Once you have that down work on diminished, wholetone, and augmented scales. It is a never ending quest!

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Jarred

... but just affew experienced tips on how to maybe apply this and/or how to start getting into actualy properly starting to improvise properly as a jazz guitarist ...

Just because it bears saying: transcribe.

Learn stuff you like from recordings of great players. Then think about what they're doing that you like, how they're applying whatever you know to date about theory, and how you might use the same ideas in other situations.

[JimBobWay]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Just because it bears saying: transcribe.

Learn stuff you like from recordings of great players. Then think about what they're doing that you like, how they're applying whatever you know to date about theory, and how you might use the same ideas in other situations.

It's the way most of the greats learned, informally from jamming and from recordings, but it's also the way I learn too

[Tbirdjazzguitar]

I would suggest targeting the chord tones of each chord first. i.e. R 3rd 5th 7th
and begin to here what just those intervals sound like in context to each chord.

[Flyin' Brian]

Originally Posted by Ged

There are a variety of 'methods'; some, like Bruno and Conti claim that scales and stuff are not necessary. They both have interesting an useful methods worth considering. On the other hand, there's the school that says that the only way to improvise properly is know the scale and modes etc.

You've got to ask yourself what your own 'learning style' is and choose whichever method fits. I've seen (and followed most of the Conti stuff) and learned a lot from Bruno, but my own learning style is most certainly knowing the scales and modes. For me (and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else what to do), it puts in my head a mental picture of the fretboard so that I can automatically go where I feel a note should be played.

But more importantly, I can hear in my head every note fractionally before I choose to play it simply because I know where I am on the fretboard. You should be able to hear in your head what a particular modes or scale sounds like, and it's this freedom that gives you a wide range of notes to chose from.

I suspect that for all their 'no modes, no scales' approach, both Conti and Bruno can do this...and one hell of a lot better than me!

This is a great post. We have to know and understand our own "learning style". I learned the fretboard very well not from playing guitar, but from playing bass in a piano trio for many years. A combination of CAGED and Jimmy Bruno's shapes (now called fingerings to not piss off somebody, but I don't know who), sealed the deal for me. Over the years my ear got good enough to pick out most things, so I just skate along in that non modal process, but I wouldn't tell anyone that it's the only way...just what's best for me.

[Ged]

Thanks for the compliment Flyin' Brian. Having also been a classical guitarist for some decades I've also suffered at the hands of people who insist that unless you 'play it them' it's all wrong. Now there are certain things that you ought not to do in that genre, and certain acceptable ways of playing, but it seems to me that it's not so much like this in jazz.

After all, who could ever copy Tal Farlow's technique which seems 'all over the place'? Yet what a player! In classical, if you moved your fingers too much away from the fretboard, your teacher would (rightly) go mad. Compare that to Pat Martino. There's a lot of seemingly excessive movement there, but just listen to the wonderful outcome. If you were to take a close look at the left had thumb position of Julian Bream and John Williams, they are different, whilst generally holding to all the other 'musts' in playing classical guitar. And they haven't done to bad.

Therefore, when starting on jazz you should always study (physically) how others are doing it, and in terms of what you learn, try everything but go for one that gives you the quickest and best results. And even then don't reject the others; take a look and see what you can pick up. But the key thing (for me) has got to be to attain a level where you know the fingerings and positions so well that your solos become instinctive and different every time.

And one final suggestion...get an internet radio and tune into a US station called 'Inside Jazz'. You get some really interesting guitarists there and you will hear something, perhaps just a few notes, that's worth copying. And have a guitar at the ready...

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by Ged

And one final suggestion...get an internet radio and tune into a US station called 'Inside Jazz'. You get some really interesting guitarists there and you will hear something, perhaps just a few notes, that's worth copying. And have a guitar at the ready...

Hey, this is nice. Thanks!