Stuck in an improv rut

[quencho092]

Ive been really stuck in a rut lately. I need to know if you guys have an approach towards soloing over changes.

Generally speaking I'm lost with respect to note names, but I can cover almost every time of arpeggio across the fretboard.

Let's say if we're playing summertime, and there's the Em7b5 to A7#5 before going back to D minor, I typically highlight the b5 followed by targeting the #5 of the next chord, spaces in between are Bb mel minor generally. For the past year I've focused on playing arpeggios in all positions and melodic minor (for applicable chords) in all positions and it has improved my awareness but I still sound a bit mechanical. Sometimes, especially in minor keys, i get 'locked' into a dorian or aeolian feel for the key of the tune and that affects how I outline the changes- it becomes a bit vague.

I've gone through some of jerry bergonzi's insidee improv jazz line, and basically that just has me doing bebop scales, but I have trouble keeping my place in the form, and I tend to just learn things in all 5 positions and never think about note names again. I'm bad with note names on the fretboard, instead I 'see' the intervals, but because the intervals are different for each chord it becomes scattered in my brain for new songs.

How much does having all the notes on the fretboard memorized help? Do you guys 'call out' the tones of each chord as it goes by? I always felt that too much information wrecks my flow completely, but I feel like I'm playing jazz like a blues neanderthal who just sheds through muscle vocabulary and I want to shake that bs off already.

Is there a book that I can digest from cover to cover that deals with jazz improv on guitar? I also need to improve fretboard awareness as well as speeding up my thinking.

[aniss1001]

I am very much struggling with learning how to play changes myself so I may not be the best person to reply here but I thought maybe some tips from one beginner to another could be helpful.

1st off.. Focus on one thing at a time. That is when learning scales or arpeggios focus on that, when learing (swing) rythm or timing focus on that, etc. That way when you're learing to play changes you're down with the other stuff and can focus on actually learning the CHANGES.

2nd.. I don't have a complete overview of the fretboard either in the sense that I can't allways tell the name of any given note immediately. Sometimes I have to think usually using the E strings or the A string as a base (those I do have memorized). I am slowly getting there though.

But what I think is more important when learning changes is to know the RELATIVE notes. That is for example when you on a Dm7 chords knowing that a certain note is the 5th or whatnot of that chord. And knowing how that note/interval sounds.

Something that helped me (got it from watching an instructional video with Joe Pass) is to practice chords and scales together. For instance play a some chord in a certain position and then play the scale that goes with it (or one of them). Joe Pass would play the scale from the root note of the chord to the top note and try to think of it as a melody line rather than a scale. Singing the notes simultaneously is off course a good idea. Or when you're playing a scale in a given position once in a while play the inversion of the chord you have in mind. This will give you a much stronger idea of the relationship between chords and scales. I noticed that by doing this I can sort of visualalize a chord on the fretboard when I'm playing a given scale in a given position.

You can apply this approach directly to learning the changes of specific tunes by doing this one chords at a time. No metronome. Just play the 1st chord and then the appropriate scale, then the 2nd chord, etc. Slowly slowly. You can do this both by playing the scales linearly or by improvising frases on each chord.

There is also something called "continuous scale excercises" (according to Mark Levine) which is playing each scale linearly (tipically in quarter or eighths notes) of a given progession and then weaing them toghether.

Of course it's always a good idea to 1st learn the melody and the chords well of a given tune. Find some different chords voicing that seems logical and then use these positions as a base for the exercises I mentioned above.

Ah and learning some chord melodies of standards is also a very good idea. I helps you connect the chords and the melody in a very good way. And also helps you to stop thinking of chords as blocks but rather as indivudual notes.

And that's about it for now. Hope you found it useful

[marcwhy]

You pose a lot of great questions.

So what does your teacher suggest you work on?

[Kman]

Is there a book that I can digest from cover to cover that deals with jazz
improv on guitar? I also need to improve fretboard awareness as well as speeding
up my thinking.

Try the David Baker Bebop Vol 2. and the Bert Ligon Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony. They are the best I've seen.

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by quencho092

How much does having all the notes on the fretboard memorized help?

To really create improvised music, I'd say that Knowing all the notes you are playing on the fretboard is essential.

Originally Posted by quencho092

Do you guys 'call out' the tones of each chord as it goes by?

When practising, I sing each note name as I play them.

My Advice
Restrict yourself to the first 5 to 6 frets. Spend a week practising all the arps, scales, songs, everything you know, but only using the first 5 to 6 frets. Play slowly and sing the name of each note as you play them.

Most songs can be played in 5 to 6 frets.

The next week add another position, then another position the next week etc until you cover the whole fretboard.

Nuff Said

[cjm]

Okay, this will probably honk a bunch of people off, but anyhow...

I think all too often we forget that playing guitar is play. An activity children instinctively engage in, and that adults need to engage in more.

But instead, we all too often turn what should be play into work -- with all the anxiety and concerns that comes with it.

So then, there is play and the closely associated concept of fun.

When you can describe your playing as "mechanical" or "locked in a rut" and talk about "i get 'locked' into a dorian or aeolian feel for the key of the tune and that affects how I outline the changes"...then you have stopped engaging in play.

I do not suggest that theory and drill are of no importance, but I also don't think they can get you out of a rut. Theory goes out the window when we're driving down the road and humming a tune and begin improvising...it's just simple joy. It is play. It is fun.

So forget, for a time, ideas like "what should I play over this," and don't worry about something being "advanced," or "sophisticated," or "outside," or "highly abstract." For the most part, the people listening (if any) wouldn't know a scale if it bit them on the ass anyway.

And then embrace the melody. The guy who composed it must have done a good job or you wouldn't be playing his tune in the first place, right? So then, just begin to play with the melody. Note that I didn't use the terms "solo" or "improvise." I'm emphasizing the concept of a largely unstructured activity without any real rules engaged in for the purpose of fun.

You won't be able to entirely switch off the conditioning and knowledge from months and years of study and drill...that's okay because that will help keep things sounding "musically correct." But you want to reach into that innate human "musicality" that comes out when you hum or sing in the shower, or while driving, or while your mother in law is speaking...

I'm sorry I don't have the vocabulary or ability to explain it better...but I've been around too many jazzers who have forgotten to play...and yes, when they perform they incorporate a butt load of high brow concepts, but it comes across as mechanistic and every tune begins to sound the same.

Anyhow, if you feel you're in a rut, it's something to think about.

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by cjm

You won't be able to entirely switch off the conditioning and knowledge from months and years of study and drill...that's okay because that will help keep things sounding "musically correct." But you want to reach into that innate human "musicality" that comes out when you hum or sing in the shower, or while driving, or while your mother in law is speaking...

You still need to learn to play to be able to play.

Nuff Said

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

You still need to learn to play to be able to play.

Of course, but I'm making an assumption based on the content of the original post that the OP knows how to play a tune...knows some basics of harmony...but that the issue is that his/her improvisational lines are becoming tiresome, repetitive and uninspiring to him/her.

You also have to know how to tune a guitar before you can play it, but that's sort of implied...

[hed_b94]

Learn the fretboard!

[P-90]

Originally Posted by cjm

Okay, this will probably honk a bunch of people off, but anyhow...

I think all too often we forget that playing guitar is play. An activity children instinctively engage in, and that adults need to engage in more.

But instead, we all too often turn what should be play into work -- with all the anxiety and concerns that comes with it.

So then, there is play and the closely associated concept of fun.

I absolutely agree with this statement.

Afterall, because we don't stick our instrument in our mouths, it means we can smile Look at the greats:
"Satin Doll" Joe Pass - YouTube
Wes Montgomery - Impressions (1965) - YouTube
George Benson - Breezin' - YouTube

[Nuff Said]

"Knowing the fingerings, scales, arps and chords to each of the chord/scales in the harmony is fundamental, but, don't make the mistake of taking a lifetime to learn the fundamentals and never take the time to enjoy making music. Sometimes we forget to balance the learning of scales, chords, fingerings, technique, ect with the joy of playing a simple melody that we hear in our heads"

From "Jamey Aebersold" "How to play Jazz Vol 1"

[JonnyPac]

I think INTERVALS constantly and it is efficient in real-time playing. Note locations are great too, but I can't think of them at the rate jazz runs typically occur at. Though I do know exactly what I am playing at all times via intervals, shapes, roots, and so on.

Outlines are a great way to get creative and play changes... Check out these examples:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...c-devices.html

My book covers all the "inside" chord-scale info with the fretboard in mind + a little chapter on linear harmony (posted above). I recommended Bert Ligon's books, but they are not necessarily intended for the guitar; you must put in the effort to work out the examples and read standard notation.

Hope that helps.

[jayx123]

+1 on intervals, I think its more important to know the sounds of the intervals in the shapes then to know the name of the notes (which are important too). scat while improvising this will help you internalize the sounds of the intervals in the shape.

[aniss1001]

+2 on the intervals (JonnyPac).

And personally I don't think it is that essential to be able to name every note. And I certainly don't think that is quencho092's (main) problem at his current level. I think it is something that comes slowly with time. I'm ALMOST there (just tested myself now) allthough I never actually made an effort to do it.

The chord / scale relationship as I mentioned is far more essential in my book. If I'm playing over say Dm7 I don't really care that the note I'm playing is called A but I DO care that I'm playing the 5th of the chord and even more so how that sounds. Anyway that was what helped me getting started playing changes.

Ah the Joe Pass video that helped me realize this is called "jazz lines". It's actually a collection of frases and etudes and comes with PDF. And off course building a vocabulary of frases is another thing that is essential (to me) in order to improvise. So I very much recommend the video!

And I also agree that playing WITH the guitar (as a toy) is essential. Remember seeing an interview with Pat Martino where he said the same thing. The English language is kind of clumsy in that sense. In other languages (including my own: Danish) there are different words for playing (what children do) and playing (like a musical intrument). But I guess in English I would frase it like this:

PLAYING WITH the guitar is essential in order to learn how to PLAY it!

[JonnyPac]

This interval ear trainer is good (though the guitar itself it better, IMHO)...

Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net

[TruthHertz]

First of all what you're going through is natural. Improvising is something that takes time to get good at. One thing that's helpful is to have the sound of something in your head that you want to play-think sound instead of number or hand. To this end try some ear things, like put on a recording of something similar to what you want to be able to do, or just something you like, but try an instrument other than guitar. I like Jim Hall, I might put on Lee Konitz or Lennie Tristano... and just play your stuff with the recording. It's a nice way to be aware of what other people do, and it gives you a nice way of being aware of the many things you can do. Learn to listen: to the music, to your self.
Do you work with a metronome? Set it on 2 and 4 for swing, 1 and 3 for latin. Turn it WAY down, like so slow you get lost in feeling the beat. Now play, not in 16th notes or to fill in space, but to make melody. You now have the space to make decisions about your options and then the time to figure out how to play them. Learn to think in ideas: I'm going to play a 3 note melodic phrase similar to the melody... now I'm going to put in space and adapt that idea as the changes go by. Something like that.
Get out a piece of music paper and take the time to patiently compose 1 chorus. Here you can actually decide if you want to start on 1, or the AND of 1, or 2... If you just did that, you're going to see pretty fast if you're doing the same thing. That process is soloing but with enough time to do it with imagination.

Hey, have you ever seen Mick Goodrick's Advancing Guitarist? Find it in the library or bookstore and give it a glance, you might find the approach and range of topics useful.

Practice imagination.
David

[MatthiasYoung]

Here's a controversial thought - There is NO such thing as improvisation. In order to "improvise," you are playing through patterns that you already know. If you feel you are stuck in a rut, examine the scales and arpeggios that you don't know. Work out various patterns for your scales and arpeggios.

Getting away from the technical side of music for a moment, can you hear a solo in your head before you play it? Is what you're playing what you want to play?

Just some thoughts. I welcome feedback from those who disagree. What's your thought process on "improvisation?"

[cosmic gumbo]

If you don't LISTEN to enough jazz, this will happen.

[TruthHertz]

Who did that?
David

[Kman]

"It’s a mistake worrying about being original, because unless your good, being original is a moot point anyway" - Jimmy Rainy