Scofield tune: Since you asked

[aniss1001]

I've been studying this tune for some time. I have learned the chords, the melody, the chord melody intro, Scofields solo and am currently working on Joe Lovano's solo.

The A section chord progression is pretty simple (I guess :/) and goes:

|: Cm7 | A7b5 | D7b9 | G7alt | Cm7 | Ebm7 | Dm7b5 | DbM7 | Cm7 | Fm7 | Bb7 | A7 | AbM7 | DbM7 | Bb7sus | Cm7 :|

Bar 1-4 and 5-8 respectively are derivations of I-VI-II-V progresions I believe (The second one being rather odd though). But I find them quite dificult to improvise over. Perhaps because I am interpreting the chords wrong. In particular the 2nd bar. My inmediate interpretation would be an A Lydian b7 but it simply sounds wrong. And the 3rd bar I first thought was a diminished (I read that it is the "default" choice for a 7b9 chord). But to be frank the only way I can make it sound of anything is by using the altered scale on bar 2,3 and 4. Anyway all ideas are welcome

[aniss1001]

Hmm oops ... I made a mistake. It's actually 2 chords per bar. That is:

|: Cm7 - A7b5 | C7b9 - G7alt | ... etc ...

But I'll leave it as is otherwise it will mess with the refferences to the bar numbers

[Spirit59]

You could think of the A7b5 | C7b9 as being part of the 1/2 - whole diminished (A7, C7, Eb7, Gb7 - all m3rds apart).

[aniss1001]

Ah sorry I made a bad mistake. The C7b9 is actually a D7b9. That is a sub for the Dm7b5 that would normally be the II chord of a II-V-I progression. I changed it in the original post now.

But yes playing a dim H/W on the A7b5 is an option and also sounds ok. But I don't think it would be my default choice. The A7b5 is a sub for the Am7b5 that would be the VI chord in a "standard"/"non altered" minor VI-II-V-I progression like this I believe (not sure?!):

|: Cm7 | Am7b5 | Dm7b5 | G7alt :| (Hmm... that's the start of Round Mindnight actually)

Anyway playing an A locrian scale on the A7b5 actually works just fine and I think both Scofield and Lovano does that some of the time.

Actually Scofield plays a C blues scale on the Cm7 chord and an Amb5 triad on the A7b5 chord in the 1st chorus.

Lovano plays a Cm triad on the both chords using a D as a passing note to the Eb. Actually he seems to play only notes from the C aeolean scale or the C blues scale on the 1st 8 bars.

Anyway thanks for the reply and sorry about the mistake..

[aniss1001]

Perhaps I should mention.. I think what I'm trying to do here (and in general when learning to improvise over a given chord progression) is to nail the most natural / logical / inside-ish scales to use on each chords and then take it from there.

I am aware that there are always several choices and that none is THE most correct one. I am also aware that eventually one shouldn't think of scales at all when improvising but simply notes and intervals. But at my current level I find it necessary to do it this way

[aniss1001]

No replies here so I think I may have complicated the question too much. I'll try to simplify.

Let's take the 2 progressions:

1) |: Cm7 | A7b5 | D7b9 | G7alt :|
2) |: Cm7 | Ebm7 | Dm7b5 | DbM7 :|

My questions:

1) Both are derivations of I-VI-II-V in minor right?
2) What would you play over these changes?
3) What would be a PURE minor I-VI-II-V? And some common derivations? (I've been studying major I-VI-II-V quite a bit but in minor not so much)
4) When playing over derived progressions like that do you look at the specific chords or simply play it like any I-VI-II-V progression?

[Spirit59]

I think if you look at any interesting player, you'll find someone that can make every change (taking on each chord in it's own right), but more often than not plays more horizontally, letting all the vertical information inform his playing rather than control it.

If I were playing over that progression, I would try to mix up my approach every time through, sometimes being more obvious that I was giving consideration to each chord, while other times just thinking Cm. If you've got a blues bag, it can take you far in this. It depends on how you want to sound - how much blues you inject is an aesthetic decision - some guys elect to remove as much blues as they can from their playing in order to come at it fresh and be more cliche free - not me, it's part of what I am and for me it's the glue.

You can take control of the harmonic rhythm here by just thinking tonic / dominant, as much or as little as you feel. It simplifies things, and put's YOU in the driver's seat.

1) Both are derivations of I-VI-II-V in minor right?

Yes.

2) What would you play over these changes?

See above

3) What would be a PURE minor I-VI-II-V? And some common derivations? (I've been studying major I-VI-II-V quite a bit but in minor not so much)

By "pure" minor, I assume you mean Aeolian or natural minor - notice that if you strictly adhere to that scale, you end up with a minor V chord, so you would need to make a little adjustment - every time you hit a natural 7 of a minor scale, you're flirting with it's V7 sound, which is sometimes just what the doctor ordered, and you're still able to think horizontally / linearly.

This stuff is really hard for me to talk about, and I don't have any idea where you're coming from or your experience, what you relate to musically....

Hope this can be of a little help.

[aniss1001]

Hmm... the word PURE was refferring to the I-VI-II-V and NOT to the MINOR. Thus I didn't mean aeolean. I meant the "basic", "unaltered", "not-substituted" (don't know how to say it) progression that others are derived from.

A "basic" I-VI-II-V in major would be GM7-Em7-Am7-D7. All others are derived from this by substituting chords. But I don't know it would be in minor. I am aware that the V chord would be a minor if it was purely diatonic. But in reality a "basic" II-V-I in minor would be Am7b5-D7-Gm7. That much I know. The VI chord I'm not sure though. I suposse it would be Em7b5 but I don't know.

About me: Well I played quite seriously in my early youth. Styles like rock, blues, funk, pop, a bit of "light"/modal-fusion. I knew my church modes well and of course pentatonics and blues scale. I also knew to play the 5th mode of either harmonic or melodic minor when on a dominant to a minor chord. But that's about it.

I then stopped playing guitar for 14 years and in april this year I bought a guitar and started playing again, this time focusing on jazz. I've been reading up on jazz theory but I still have a long way to go. In particular when it comes to "advanced" subs and stuff like that.

But what really challenges me is PLAYING CHANGES the way you do in jazz. Something I never did before. I use my "blues bag" as a base, but I am very much trying to get the CHANGES down. It's sort of like whenever I get "scared" or don't know what to do I run home to mama (=blues)

My main influence is SCOFIELD, but I listen to all sorts of jazz including Chet Baker (love him), Miles Davis, Wes Montgomery, Bill Frisell and lots of other stuff but those would be my current favorites.

Sorry about the long reply but you sort of implied a rather complex question there