Is this guy a pro or an amateur JAZZ player?

jpavlicek · #1 12-07-2011, 04:31 PM

I went through an exhausting online arguing about the improvising skills of the guitarist featured in the songs below.
It happens that I'm very confused about what my ears hear and what I've been told relating to his music background.
So, I ask you to help me telling what you hear:

1. It seems that he plays guitar for a while, but started to study jazz recently
2. It seems that he plays guitar for a while and is familiar with jazz improvising
3. He's an advanced guitar player with advanced jazz improvising skills
4. I don't hear any improvising at all

A - I like it
B - I don't like it

(I think the best way to assess it rightly is doing a blind audition)

After 20 votes I'll reveal his music background.

Choose 1 number and 1 letter:

Kanaal van lufelima - YouTube

Kanaal van lufelima - YouTube

Kanaal van lufelima - YouTube

Thank You for helping.

Little Jay · #2 12-07-2011, 05:02 PM

I only listened to the first one:

B - I don't like it (Sorry...)

5 - it's all improvised, but I don't think he really knows what he's doing in terms of jazz theory (I hear more rock and blues-licks, but to my ears he's kind of randomly playing all the licks he knows), but he definitely knows how to play the guitar (the technique is there). He might be covering up the fact that he really knows how to play jazz....

(and I like his playing a lot better in this one

):

YouTube Video

AmundLauritzen · #3 12-07-2011, 05:08 PM

You either enjoy his playing or you don't. Music is not sports. The comment fields on every jazz guitar video, or guitar video in general is a pissing contest of comparing guitarists to one another and "don't like what I don't like".
He can play, no doubt about it. If his music resonates with you or not is up to you to decide. You don't need validation from other people to confirm that you have good taste.

To my ears, he plays very well. I can't imagine why anybody would try to convince you of anything else. I really enjoyed his take on Stella.
People feeling the need to badmouth musicians are usually people who can't play themselves.

Enjoy his music, and don't worry about what some people think of players you admire

mr. beaumont · #4 12-07-2011, 05:10 PM

Not positive I know the point of a thread like this, but here goes.

Mayb3 a "pro" at some point in rock. Hard to say. Definitely not a jazz player.

The time feel in the first two vids is really bad. The bossa is much better. The tune itself is cool...the solo works, but it's a bit aimless.

So where are we going with this? Building a guy up? Free advertising? Or tearing a dude apart who's just making some music?

brwnhornet59 · #5 12-07-2011, 05:16 PM

I liked his Bossa For Coletrane. He is an excellent comper. Listen to his Giant Steps. And Stella had descent soloing. I have heard much better soloists, at least in the way I enjoy, but I have heard much much worse.

With that being said, the guy is no hack.

The first 2 examples you gave were not good examples.

2
A

cjm · #6 12-07-2011, 05:46 PM

I wouldn't fall over in a heap to discover that much of this is a put on.

jpavlicek · #7 12-07-2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

So where are we going with this? Building a guy up? Free advertising? Or tearing a dude apart who's just making some music?

I'm not a jazz specialist. I just want to check if my assessment is right. No harm intended at all. I'm curious about other people's opinion.

mr. beaumont · #8 12-07-2011, 07:24 PM

Yeah, but what is your assessment?

I mean this guy is an actual person... I can let a lot roll off my back but if I found somebody starting a poll about me on some internet forum that basically says "is this guy any good or a hack" I imagine it wouldn't feel so great.

jpavlicek · #9 12-07-2011, 07:29 PM

I see your point. Should I pull it out?

JakeAcci · #10 12-07-2011, 08:23 PM

It would be a great use of my time to participate in this thread.

jpavlicek · #11 12-08-2011, 06:02 AM

Thank you very much for the help so far.

For those who are afraid to contribute to the topic, let me clarify a few things.

No harm intended here. I saw those videos in another forum and thought the guy was just a music lover who loves to play and was sharing his hobby with other people. I think he's a good guitar player. I commended his work in those videos and tried to help with the weak points.

The guy got really mad at me, and started to brag that he plays jazz for over 30 years and that he achieved such a high level in JAZZ improvising that very few people in the world would be able to do what he does. He started to claim that he worked as a JAZZ teacher side by side with JIMMY BRUNO, and that Jimmy complimented him on his work and said that had even learned from him.

From this point on, I started to doubt my senses, music knowledge, and any logic related to what he says and what he plays.

Drumbler · #12 12-08-2011, 07:29 AM

In those first two vids he is playing rock pentatonics.

We don't know his intention in his doing that. Maybe he did it for fun.

He plays pretty well over Giant Steps and some of the other jazz tunes.

The guy has big skills there is no doubt.

cjm · #13 12-08-2011, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpavlicek

The guy got really mad at me, and started to brag that he plays jazz for over 30 years and that he achieved such a high level in JAZZ improvising that very few people in the world would be able to do what he does. He started to claim that he worked as a JAZZ teacher side by side with JIMMY BRUNO, and that Jimmy complimented him on his work and said that had even learned from him.

The guy is a decent player, but he's not anything close to being as good as he claims, if your report is accurate. If the videos you posted links to, as well as his other videos, are representative of his taste and skill, maybe Jimmy Bruno was just being polite. More likely, the guy is lying through his teeth, and has never met Bruno.

The first couple of videos with all that distortion and his mugging for the camera is why I thought it might be a put on...it's been done before and it predates the 'net and the ability to post videos by several decades.

From his more serious videos, I'd categorize him as a good player who could get gigs at a local/regional level, and probably support himself as an instructor of beginning and intermediate level players...but not some one who will be remembered as any sort of top professional.

Having said that, I'd be tickled to play as well as he does. But I don't claim to be anything other than a hack player who gigs where it isn't necessary to be able to hit against big league pitching.

mr. beaumont · #14 12-08-2011, 03:25 PM

Nobody else thinks the time feel in the first two videos is really bad?

I'm going to go back and check out some of his more jazzy stuff. Was this a random sample of vids or an attempt to pick the best, the worst, or somewhere in between?

I was defending this cat yesterday, but man, I hate when people name drop. In fact, I was just telling Herbie the other day.

brwnhornet59 · #15 12-08-2011, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Nobody else thinks the time feel in the first two videos is really bad?

I'm going to go back and check out some of his more jazzy stuff. Was this a random sample of vids or an attempt to pick the best, the worst, or somewhere in between?

I was defending this cat yesterday, but man, I hate when people name drop. In fact, I was just telling Herbie the other day.

Yeah, the first two tunes blew. That is why I said they were bad examples.

I will tell Chick and Frank you said Hi!

cjm · #16 12-08-2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Nobody else thinks the time feel in the first two videos is really bad?

I couldn't get past the distortion and the mugging. Ernie Kovacs didn't have anything on this guy.

cjm · #17 12-08-2011, 03:34 PM

Although, come to think of it, Dick Shawn might be a better comparison. Particularly when playing guitar in Evil Roy Slade.

oilywrag · #18 12-08-2011, 03:41 PM

The timing sucks on the videos but check out the guys cd on amazon, plus you can read about him on AAJ...At the end of the day you will like or dislike the guys music, but thats all about taste..

brwnhornet59 · #19 12-08-2011, 03:51 PM

I saw that yesterday.

Lufe Lima | Jazz | Guitar

Dark Star · #20 12-09-2011, 03:09 AM

I think he's a great jazz player. He should leave the rock stuff alone, though. Either that or come out of the '80s, bro. During that first one I was expecting some dude w/big hair in a spandex body suit to come out & do the splits
lol

Dark Star · #21 12-09-2011, 03:13 AM

And another thing- quit looking into the camera. I'm not comfortable w/that much eye contact from a jazz guitar player.

Quendit · #22 12-09-2011, 07:44 AM

This is my opinion.

The guy,can play guitar. That´s a fact.

But,for me ,its sound more amateur than professional.

Generally,there is something in his sound,I don,t like.

I,m not sure about.

Could be...........................feeling??.

I miss something in his kind of playing................

Louis

Gramps · #23 12-09-2011, 08:23 AM

As to the wording of the original question "pro or amature", there are hack pros and amazing amatures. Those terms normally pertain to financial rewards.

mr. beaumont · #24 12-09-2011, 09:26 AM

Well, now I'm going back on my original opinion...I went and checked out his whole youtube channel, and a lot of the playing is quite good...

seems like the choices for this poll were a little loaded.

brwnhornet59 · #25 12-09-2011, 09:29 AM

Yeah, that is what I said from the get go.

Jeff, did you see the link I posted in my last post, about him?

ybjazz · #26 12-09-2011, 03:29 PM

@jpavlicek

Where's your videos? I mean, if you're wanting to point this guy out in public to a forum of jazz guitarists and point out his playing as "not really jazz guitar"- let's compare to yours. You've got balls to post somebody else's videos and take a poll and not showcase any of your own? Are you a jazz snob or something? Do something productive, like drink a beer or practice (or both).

Seems to me that he's a guy taking a lot of time to make videos, good or bad, and I'm sure that he has people that actually care about him that are very proud of him. Maybe just be happy for the dude and if you don't like his videos, don't poll about them?

jmstritt · #27 12-09-2011, 04:20 PM

Eh, it is what it is.

cjm · #28 12-09-2011, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ybjazz

@jpavlicek

Where's your videos? I mean, if you're wanting to point this guy out in public to a forum of jazz guitarists and point out his playing as "not really jazz guitar"- let's compare to yours. You've got balls to post somebody else's videos and take a poll and not showcase any of your own? Are you a jazz snob or something? Do something productive, like drink a beer or practice (or both).

Seems to me that he's a guy taking a lot of time to make videos, good or bad, and I'm sure that he has people that actually care about him that are very proud of him. Maybe just be happy for the dude and if you don't like his videos, don't poll about them?

It's one thing to critique the work of an enthusiastic and sincere amateur or your humble local hack.

But this fellow appears to be promoting himself as an "A List" player on his website, and if the OP's report of what the guy had to say to him in an online exchange is accurate (which I don't have any reason to doubt), then his playing deserves to be evaluated in the context of the true masters of jazz guitar.

And in that context, the guy is a "poseur." He ain't got the chops.

If I were to pretend to be more than a hack player, I would deserve a serious reality check and more than a little ridicule. In this instance, no one here is directly addressing him and telling him: "You suck!"

He also claims to have been an MTV producer -- he's really pushing his resume as a former child prodigy and industry insider to build his credibility.

And when it is put out there like that, it becomes fair game for anyone to take a shot at.

It isn't necessary to be able to play like Tal Farlow as a prerequisite to expressing an opinion as an informal critic...and not being able to play like Tal Farlow doesn't mean a critique isn't informed.

Dark Star · #29 12-09-2011, 05:05 PM

Lack of talent has never stopped anyone from thinking more highly of themselves than they thought. At least it's never stopped me.

brwnhornet59 · #30 12-09-2011, 05:09 PM

Yeah, but you are just a brown dwarf with an incredible density that sets everything in your path in an inexorable orbit centered around you!