dim scale

[JazzRocker]

On a Jazz Blues diminished chord is it incorrect to play a half whole rather than a whole half dim scale on a #4 chord:

F7|Bb7|F7|Cm7 Falt| Bb7 bdim7|F7

is it okay to play either dim scale (whole half or half whole) from the Bdim7 root? The chord is diatonic to both scales.

[Kman]

Still think Bb7. A Bdim chord is a Bb7/B. I think of it as step wise bass movement. I like the straight old F minor blues scale switching to F major blues scale on F7.

[AlohaJoe]

What Kman said! I'd also think of it as a Bb7b9. I'd probably revert to dim arpeggios from the B (b9), D (b3rd), F (b5) or the Ab (bb7), but I'm just learning this stuff, so...

[jmstritt]

If you were going to think scale wise, I'd say half whole would be your best option, but as the others said I view it more as a stepwise bass movement.

The other way you could look at it is tension leading back to that F in which case you could play pretty much anything that will resolve to F. What I would do scale wise in that situation is play Bb Mix, and then go to B Melodic Minor (Emphasizing all the alterations of Bb7alt, particularly the b9) and resolve it to F.

[AmundLauritzen]

I like to think in terms of resolution. What chord is the diminished scale resolving to? I think of the V of that and play the appropriate dim scale.
Generally, diminished chords are whole half, and dominant chords are half whole.

In most cases, pure diminished chords are just rootless dominant sevenths. This frees you from diminished-only options and you can analyze it functionally to use other scales. You can usually detect which dominant chord it implies is by looking at the chord before and after the dim chord.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by AlohaJoe

What Kman said! I'd also think of it as a Bb7b9. I'd probably revert to dim arpeggios from the B (b9), D (b3rd), F (b5) or the Ab (bb7), but I'm just learning this stuff, so...

AmundLauritzen:In most cases, pure diminished chords are just rootless dominant sevenths. This frees you from diminished-only options and you can analyze it functionally to use other scales. You can usually detect which dominant chord it implies is by looking at the chord before and after the dim chord.

What Joe and Amund said!

[JonnyPac]

Oh boy-

I've dug deep into the theory regarding this particular problematic chord- Of course you can play whatever you want over it; blues licks, etc, but I'm focusing on nailing it specifically.

It is a secondary dominant (V7/iii w a deceptive cadence), and like BH pointed out, it is a rootless b7b9 chord- and not necessarily built from the HW or WH dim scale. It is a harmonic minor V chord from "Phrygian dominant".

A "correct" spelling in a Bb blues would be | Eb7 | A7b9/E or C#dim7/E | Bb/F and so on. The fact that the A7 has an E natural (the bass) makes A7 ALT a poor choice- HM has a place in jazz w/o being overtly "Spanish" sounding.

Try out lots of A7b9 voicings there and solo with the A Phryhian dominant scale for that bar outlining the chord tones and extensions you dig. The P4 (D in this case) is a passing tone, and not stable like the C# and E on either side of it.

[JonnyPac]

Here's some material on it, if you dig my "inside" approach:

Phrygian Dominant CAGED guitar patterns:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...CAGEDJBREV.jpg

Jazzy Phrygian dominant voicings:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...vIII7JBREV.jpg

Info diminished tetrads within Phrygian Dominant vs the Dim scale:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...Dim01JBREV.jpg

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

... A "correct" spelling in a Bb blues would be | Eb7 | Ab7b9/E or C#dim7/E | Bb/F and so on.

You clarified beyond this, but you meant A7b9/E, here (and not Ab7b9).

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by M-ster

You clarified beyond this, but you meant A7b9/E, here (and not Ab7b9).

Yup- terrible typo. Fixed it.

BTW I set the blues example in Bb, not F. If it were an F Blues the progression would be Bb7 | E7b9/B or G#dim7/B | F7/C. It's a V7/iii E7 of Am the iii of F then followed by a deceptive cadence to the I, F/C with the bass moving nicely. E Phrygian dominant from A HM is the scale.

[JazzRocker]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Yup- terrible typo. Fixed it.

BTW I set the blues example in Bb, not F. If it were an F Blues the progression would be Bb7 | E7b9/B or G#dim7/B | F7/C. It's a V7/iii E7 of Am the iii of F then followed by a deceptive cadence to the I, F/C with the bass moving nicely. E Phrygian dominant from A HM is the scale.

So you're saying the Bdim7 is functioning as an E7b9?

[JazzRocker]

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

I like to think in terms of resolution. What chord is the diminished scale resolving to? I think of the V of that and play the appropriate dim scale.
Generally, diminished chords are whole half, and dominant chords are half whole.

In most cases, pure diminished chords are just rootless dominant sevenths. This frees you from diminished-only options and you can analyze it functionally to use other scales. You can usually detect which dominant chord it implies is by looking at the chord before and after the dim chord.

This sounds like what Im going for. I think thats a good rule of thumb!

[tonedeaf]

Amazing responses! I was having trouble deciding if in "dim scale", the dim was a noun or adjective!

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by JazzRocker

So you're saying the Bdim7 is functioning as an E7b9?

Yes. Actually G#dim7/B is E7b9 (though Bdim7 is enharmonic)- The scale and hierarchy of tones is a little different.

[JazzRocker]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Yes. Actually G#dim7/B is E7b9 (though Bdim7 is enharmonic)- The scale and hierarchy of tones is a little different.

So the A is a sort of substitute for the F?

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by JazzRocker

So the A is a sort of substitute for the F?

The Am that the E7 is hinting at? Yes- it's the common iii for I sub. It appears in lots of classic jazz non-blues progressions. A lot of "B sections" or bridges have it. Just think of it as something you can use and articulate in your playing.

[JazzRocker]

I still think the W H dim scale sounds best. That could be because it surrounds the Dim 7 arp though.

[brwnhornet59]

There are many ways to approach that voicing when soloing. You will find your ears change as your palate matures. Do not get hung up on "this scale goes with this chord", at the expense of excluding other ideas. Use everything that you can think of as you learn. Let your ear be the judge. There are no right or wrong ways, just what you think is right or wrong at the time.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by JazzRocker

I still think the W H dim scale sounds best. That could be because it surrounds the Dim 7 arp though.

The dim arp is in phrygian dom!

The 3 5 b7 b9 is the arp. Look hard before you write something off!

[brwnhornet59]

Dom b9 is Phrygian Dom.

I use F MM over Bb7b9, (B Dim), as well. I have no issues hearing the C instead of B. The 1/2 step dissonance between B and C works because Bb7 is a tension chord anyway, the b9 and 9 are nothing more than awesome passing tones if played correctly. Which one is correct depends on which way you analyze it.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Dom b9 is Phrygian Dom.

I use F MM over Bb7b9, (B Dim), as well. I have no issues hearing the C instead of B. The 1/2 step dissonance between B and C works because Bb7 is a tension chord anyway, the b9 and 9 are nothing more than awesome passing tones if played correctly. Which one is correct depends on which way you analyze it.

Yup. But alternate bass notes and rootless voicings make it tough to spot. Especially in contexts that are not overtly Spanish or Classical sounding, such as a jazz blues or 40's standards.

[JonnyPac]

Here's a breakdown on why E7b9/B is more inside than Bdim(WH)...

E7b9 is V7/iii of F Major. E F G# A B C D the notes are set up to tonicize the Am as in the basic dominant chord E G# B D (R M3 P5 m7) with F (G natural) and C as the altered 9ths and the b13. These are the minimum key signature alterations required to pull towards the Am (treating it as "i" tonic minor of Am) as a secondary dominant from a neighboring key. The diminished tetrad (arp) with B in the bass is just the M3 P5 m7 and m9 of that same chord.

Those same dim tetrad tones are in B WH dim but it introduces other problematic notes that do not "help" establish the tonal center. Symmetrical scales are not nearly as old as the progressions in discussion (as far as I know). Their use as "defaults" needs to be questioned. If they truly produce the sound the pleases you, then you can go about your business without giving it a second thought. Seeing the global (whole section/progression) vs local (the static chord out of context) is important, IMHO.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Yup. But alternate bass notes and rootless voicings make it tough to spot. Especially in contexts that are not overtly Spanish or Classical sounding, such as a jazz blues or 40's standards.

Agreed. I love deception. All the more alluring with the WTF was that, factor.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Agreed. I love deception. All the more alluring with the WTF was that, factor.

Exactly! That's fresh music; fresh context!