(advice needed) position playing and songs

[Helgo]

Hi everybody.

I need your advice on something.

So I switched from the CAGED system (of which I actually only employed CG lol) to the three-note-per-string system. Very nice, very convenient.

I finished learning the seventh position tonight. Yaay for me
I still have to practice at very slow tempos but it really feels good to be abled to play over the whole fretboard.

So here´s my question: When I learn the melodies of songs what is a good starting point ... I know the ultimate goal is to play anything anywhere.
But how do I approach this in a systematical manner? I mean, in a way that makes sense?

Learn every melody in all seven positions?

Or learn every melody in like two positions per song? And then at a given time everything will fall into place?

Three positions? Four? ...?

You get my question (at least I hope so) and I am thankful for any advice.

Cheers,
H.

[FatJeff]

I guess it would depend on larger-scale considerations. How much time do you want to devote to this song? Do you want to really internalize this tune? If you do, then yeah, not only learn it in all positions/areas of the fretboard, but also learn it in all 12 keys. :-) But if you're like me and you have a dozen other tunes you're expected to learn in a semester, just learn it in one or two places in the original key and move on.

[Helgo]

Hi Jeff.

Thanks for offering some perspective.
I guess I just want to do it "right", but still, with my limited practice time, I don´t want to be "stuck" learning one tune for several weeks...

Any other thoughts?

Cheers,
H.

[marcwhy]

Since guitar sounds an octave lower than is written, I often start by finding a reasonable position to play the tune "as written," and then another an octave up.

If I really want to get into a tune, then FatJeff's suggestion of lots of positions, lots of keys, is right on.

Marc

[bako]

If you are fully aware of the notes in all 7 positions and not just the shapes then the idea of playing a melody in 7 three note per string positions will not seem so large a task.

Another practice variant that will accomplish the same thing:

Pick a repertoire of 5-12 songs
Each day play all of them limited to 1 position
7 days in a week / 7 positions

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by Helgo

Hi Jeff.

Thanks for offering some perspective.
I guess I just want to do it "right", but still, with my limited practice time, I don´t want to be "stuck" learning one tune for several weeks...

Any other thoughts?

Cheers,
H.

I am not trying to be snide, but for me, several weeks is barely enough time to really learn one tune. I do know musicians who seem to be able to absorb new songs at a much faster rate, but for me, learning a new tune takes a lot of time and effort. Note that I'm talking about a tune that I do not know at all, and not just a blues or rhythm changes song.

Take, for instance, Body and Soul, or All The Things You Are, or something weird like Little Melonae or Stablemates. The biggest hurdle for me is to be able to sing the melody, and to sing the bass line, without accompaniment. That requires me to listen to many different versions of the song over the period of a couple of weeks, and to sing along. Once I can do those two things reliably, and I know the lyrics (if there are any), I feel ready to tackle the actual chords, and I then transcribe the changes from a definitive recording. This really solidifies the song within me, and I will not forget it.

It is very tempting to "learn" a bunch of tunes at once, but in my experience, I end up not really learning any of them if I just listen to a song a couple of times, and then whip out the Real Book. A good test for yourself is to write down a list of songs that you know cold. Then get out your guitar, and WITH NO MUSIC IN FRONT OF YOU, play each and every one of those songs without stopping, beginning to end. Do you know the intros? The heads? Can you comp to all of them? Can you solo over those changes (do you remember those changes while you're playing them)? If not, you will realize that you don't really know those songs, and you have more work to do.

All of this sounds harsh, perhaps too much...but if you end up going to a jam session where Real Books are frowned upon (the couple of jam sessions I go to around town here are that way), this will be the level at which you will be expected to perform.

Ultimately it's your choice! I only really know perhaps 25-30 tunes in the manner above, although I can "fake it" through about 100.

[Sandor]

Frank vignola and bucky suggest learning one tune a week. I guess it depends on skill level if that is doable or not, I find one week of intense focus on a tune is fine as long as i continue playing it regularly. Spending more time is probably better in the long run, but if you are just starting out you are gonna need more than a handfull of tunes if you wanna perform anywhere(besides jams).

[Helgo]

Hi everybody.

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. I guess I´m gonna go with two positions for each melody, choosing different positions per melody for a few weeks and see how this works out for me.


Jeff, in answer to your reply:

I am not trying to be snide, but for me, several weeks is barely enough time to really learn one tune.

You are right and I probably should have been more precise. What I meant is not "to really learn a tune", but to be abled to play the melody fluently and by heart. That is, what my whole question in this thread is about.

To "really" know a tune is a long journey and I really know maybe about four or five and can "fake it" (nice expression btw ) through about 30...

My goal for 2012 is to build up my repertoire and start going to (jazz-) jam sessions. We will see how this works out...


Thanks,
Bye,
H.

[FatJeff]

Helgo, I think you are on the right path. 2 positions sounds fine.

Originally Posted by Sandor

Frank vignola and bucky suggest learning one tune a week. I guess it depends on skill level if that is doable or not, I find one week of intense focus on a tune is fine as long as i continue playing it regularly. Spending more time is probably better in the long run, but if you are just starting out you are gonna need more than a handfull of tunes if you wanna perform anywhere(besides jams).

I don't find one week is enough, but that's just me. One thing you have to remember is these guys know hundreds of tunes, and after you get to that point, songs are much easier to remember. These guys are making the suggestion from a vantage point that is not the same as a novice. I wonder if these same fellows would have recommended one a week for themselves when they were first starting out.

In my experience, when I join in a jam session, they ask me what tune I want to play. If I only have one or two tunes prepared, that's fine...if we play one of those, I'll be confident that I can play it. If not, I'll sit down. I think this is a better situation than calling one of maybe 20 tunes I only sort of know, and looking stupid up there as I forget the changes.

[jmstritt]

It is true that as you start learning tunes it gets easier. You will start to recognize patterns of chords, especially if you are working on standards or bebop tunes. Modern tunes are a little bit more difficult to memorize, because they can use different and nonfunctioning harmonic concepts. In other words, bebop and standards use a generally accepted language, whereas with modern tunes everybody sort of goes in a different direction.

What do I mean by this? I mean that if you learn Confirmation, Joy Spring will be easier to learn. However if you learn Speak No Evil, it won't nesecarily make Giant Steps any easier to learn. Hopefully this makes some sense and I haven't just complicated the matter further!

My general rule of thumb is that I spend part of my practice time working on tunes I already know, and part of my practice time working on new tunes. Usually I will tackle two new tunes at a time, because I just have trouble focusing on one tune at a time, but that's just me. Once I can play the melody in a few position, do a chord melody, comp, and improv over the tune comfortably, I move on to another tune. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, if you don't keep playing the tune after the fact, you will forget it! That is why I keep working on tunes that I have played for years. And, we all have a few favorite standards that we break out most every practice session right? Mine are Confirmation, The Night Has a Thousand Eyes, Stella By Starlight, Wave, and Joy Spring.

[Sandor]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Helgo, I think you are on the right path. 2 positions sounds fine.




I don't find one week is enough, but that's just me. One thing you have to remember is these guys know hundreds of tunes, and after you get to that point, songs are much easier to remember. These guys are making the suggestion from a vantage point that is not the same as a novice. I wonder if these same fellows would have recommended one a week for themselves when they were first starting out.

In my experience, when I join in a jam session, they ask me what tune I want to play. If I only have one or two tunes prepared, that's fine...if we play one of those, I'll be confident that I can play it. If not, I'll sit down. I think this is a better situation than calling one of maybe 20 tunes I only sort of know, and looking stupid up there as I forget the changes.

It just occurred to me that number of weeks is meaningless without stating hours per day. If you can only practice an hour or two a day then I agree with you for sure. (not saying you specifically, just "you" as in anybody)

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by Sandor

It just occurred to me that number of weeks is meaningless without stating hours per day. If you can only practice an hour or two a day then I agree with you for sure. (not saying you specifically, just "you" as in anybody)

Well, I practice for probably 3-4 hours a day, but of course not all on one thing. When I practice a song, I do so for perhaps 30 minutes. There's a lot of other stuff I work on.

[fep]

Originally Posted by Helgo

So I switched from the CAGED system (of which I actually only employed CG lol) to the three-note-per-string system. Very nice, very convenient.

So here´s my question: When I learn the melodies of songs what is a good starting point ... I know the ultimate goal is to play anything anywhere.
But how do I approach this in a systematical manner? I mean, in a way that makes sense?

Cheers,
H.

Hi Helgo,

To answer your question... imo, it depends on the melody and how accomplished you are as a guitarist.

I think of myself as an intermediate amateur guitarist. For someone like me...

A difficult melody, like Parker's 'Confirmation', it's such a struggle to figure out how to play it. So I play it only one way, I am moving up and down the neck as I like to follow the chords I might play when comping and/or I'm trying to find a spot where it's easiest for me to play.

For an easy melody, like 'The Christmas Song', I expect myself to be able to play it anywhere on the neck.

I'm curious about your decision to switch from CAGED to a three note per string system. I can understand that it would probably be easier to play fast scales that way. But, I play over chords, I'm often times thinking and actually seeing the underlying chords when I solo/improvise. The CAGED system seems so well suited for that kind of thinking.