Altered Pentatonics and Other Non-Traditional Soloing Techniques

[Providence]

Hello all! These days I'm working on altered pentatonic scales and made some research. But these are things that I found myself and I want experienced players to post their opinions here.

Basically, altered pentatonic is a pentatonic scale with lowering or rising steps in it depending on chord tensions and player's taste. so, there are many ways to alter sounds in pentatonic. But I found, that several pentatonics are more useful and universal. for example this one is derived from Lydian-Dominant scale (Overtone) and can be used against different chord types like Altered scale itself. I mean this one (in C)

C E Gb Ab B (I'm not sure do I have to write C E F# G# B or the way I've written already, please explain it to me)

so this one (or it's relative modes) works against alt7 chords, 7, m7, m7-5.

But I've also noticed, that this scale sounds good to my ears, when I superimpose it up a tritone interval (or when I play relative mode in same position). so, that means that we are dealing with tritone substitutions, right?

I want someone to correct me and explain things as they are, because my experiments can be incorrect. Thanks!

[m78w]

I wouldn't say that the scale you mentioned above works against an alt7 chord, unless I'm misunderstanding how you are using it.

Since it has a B in it, a major 7 interval, I would use this scale over a maj7 chord, where I wanted to bring out a #11 #5 sound, so Lydian Augmented.

You can basically alter any pentatonic scale, major or minor, in order to make it work over the chord you are soloing on, such as Mixolydian Pent R 2 3 5 b7, or Dorian Pent, R b3 4 5 6, etc

I have a list of some of the more common ones on my site if you want to check them out.

Jazz Guitar Scales | MattWarnockGuitar.com

Maybe give an example, like I used x notes over y chord, just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding how you are applying this scale in an improv setting.

Cool sounds for sure, and you can move them around to different notes of the chord you are soloing on. Instead of altering a pent to fit a chord, you can also just start it on another note, such as playing D major pent over Cmaj7 to produce a C Lydian sound.

Both altering pents and transposing them to start on non-tonic notes are great ways to change up your approach to pents in your solos.

[bako]

This note collection being derived from A melodic minor will be compatible with any harmonies compatible with that scale.

Looking further:

Root-----C------E-----F#-----G#-----B

C--------1-------3----#11----#5------7

Db-------7------b3-----11-----5-------b7

D--------b7-----9-------3-----#11----13

Eb-------13-----b9-----#9-----11------#5

E---------b13----1------9-------3-------5

F----------5------7------b9------b3-----#4

F#--------b5-----b7-----1--------9-------11

G----------11-----13-----7--------b9------3

Ab---------3-------#5----b7--------1-------#9

A----------b3-------5-----13--------7---------9

Bb---------9------#11----#5-------b7--------b9

B----------b9-------11-----5--------13---------1

When trying to learn the implications of a note collection, I tend to think them out like this. I don't write them out but will play them against a pedal tone of each note which allows me to make these observations while hearing the associated sound. Some harmonies are apparent and usable.
Sometimes they are almost so and then changing one problem note will allow a harmony to emerge more successfully.

Ex. against F changing F# to G clarifies an minor major 7 with #4 sound

I might also test the notes in relation to a tritone or 1 3 b7 of each note to check it out in dominant function.

Ex. against A the notes form a nice mMa9/13 sound but as a dominant the G# ( a ma7) is problematic. Changing G# to Bb (b9) fixes that.

[brwnhornet59]

Cool stuff!

[Providence]

If you play Calt7, then you can use this scale starting from E, then it will give you Altered scale feel. (or you can use mode in same position). If you play C7, then you can play it from Bb and that gives you Lydian-Dominant. but if you then superimpose this to E, then you will have that Altered scale feel over C7 which gives you altered sound against regular 7 chord. Right?

You're right Matt, this one also works well with maj7 chord starting from exactly root note or for maj7#11 chord.

[m78w]

Let's take a look at those options.

Starting on E you would get E G Bb C Eb I changed the spelling to be b's for this example.

That gives you the M3, 5th, b7, tonic and #9 over a C7 chord so that would fit a C7(#9) chord for sure.

If you started it on Bb you would get Bb D E F# A

So again, that's going to fit a C7(#11) like you said, b7-9-3-#11-13

Both are good options and work over the chords you mentioned. The real test would be to jam over those chords and see how these scales sound to you. A lot of times things work from a theory standpoint, but when you try to create music with them they don't really work as you expect. So try experimenting with these sounds, you might like them you might now, but the only way to know is to jam them out.

Remember, the real test of any concept is how it sounds and if you can make coherent music with it when improvising, at least in a jazz context, but just because something makes sense theoretically doesn't mean it's going to sound good. Try things out and see what your ears tell you after you've figured out the theory side of the equation, that's where you'll figure out how these sounds work or don't work for you.

[brwnhornet59]

You could also just play a minor pent a b3 above the root of the chord and have altered pent.

C7alt
play
Eb minor pent.

[Providence]

That's right.
Can we apply tritone divisioning to these altered scales?

[m78w]

Sure, if you played this scale alternating between starting on E and Bb over C7 you would essentially be moving between C7#9 and C7#11, so two legit sounds over an altered chord.

[brwnhornet59]

Absolutely!! You can go as far down the rabbit hole as you like. Dividing the octave in half, tritone, or in 1/4's, aug, or in 1/3's, dim. You are setting up some very cool note collections that inner relate very nicely. Modal interchange becomes very user friendly if one but follows the road map!

[Providence]

Does this tritone theory work against other types of chords too? for example over m7 chords?

[m78w]

Sure, but I would stick with the same quality of scale/arpeggio etc for each chord. So if you are using it over Cm7 I would alternate between Cm7 and F#m7, over Dmaj7 I would alternate between Dmaj7 and G#maj7, keeps things unified when you step outside.

[Providence]

thanks! nice material on your site Matt! www.mattwarnockguitar.com

[m78w]

thanks man!

[AmundLauritzen]

Pentatonics lend themselves well to symmetrical sequencing. Try using tonics from the D dim arpeggio on Dm7: D minor penta, F minor, Ab minor, Cb/B minor.
Up another minor third and you're back in D minor penta. Works very good on modal tunes. Handle with care in other situations - it could destroy the changes or sound forced unless you play with absolute confidence and what you play before and after makes sense.

[Providence]

I think this kinds of soloing are suitable with modal playing, when playing against changes, especially standards, these are very weird-sounding ones, even if you use them properly.

[JonnyPac]

I've really gotten into pentatonic superimposition in the last years, but mostly "inside" stuff. It sounds very fresh to me still- I think of So What voicings, McCoy Tyner runs, and Woody Shaw lines. Modern players like Kurt and Mike Moreno use them well too- lots of perfect intervals.

I'm actually kind of anti-tritone anything these days- They are either "weird" sounding for "stinky notes" sake or extremely functional. I have been even omitting or de-emphasising them in my voicings trying to go for more ambiguous non-functional sounds. By using lots of triads and superimposed pent shapes- I find many pleasing "stacks", inversions, and pockets for motif-building.

Just my 2 cents. Carry on!

[Providence]

Matt, still working on tritone division soloing concept with this alterd pentatonic scales.

starting from C note, altered pentatonic scale mentioned by me in this thread works well with Cmaj7 chord giving it #11 flavor. if we move that up/down a tritone, we'll have the same scale, but starting from F# note. will it sound good? F note sound bit improper to me. if we lower it to E, then we get something like F# whole tone (without G#) which works well with Cmaj7.

[m78w]

You could try the scale on F#, if you don't like it adjusting it is fine. Or you could use the F as a dissonant note to create tension, it's up to your ears. Glad you tried it out and let your ears guide you, that's the best way to go about things.

So I would say if the E sounds good to you then go for it!

[whatswisdom]

How's life in Manc, Matt?

[m78w]

Haven't gotten there yet, just visiting family until christmas then moving over. It was great in November when I was there, can't wait to get back!

[kirk95]

You guys should check this out....OPUS 28 Promotions - Jazz Improvisation