Playing outside - again

[Tom Karol]

I posed this question a long while back, but I didn't phrase it properly and people didn't seem to understand what I was asking. I've been experimenting with this again, so here goes:

Do you ever try to play lines that sound completely random? I'm not talking about playing 'outside' on changes. I'm talking about pure melodic improvisation that sounds totally random - atonal if you will - weird intervalic skips and non-scalar linear excursions (if that's even possible), unresolved cadences, etc.

It's hard, because mechanical patterns can be so ingrained in one's playing; it's difficult to sound 'random' on purpose! But it's a fun and interesting exercise.

But, of course, it generally sounds like crap!

Afterthought: This is not an invitation to post more Derek Bailey clips!

[Sandor]

I do just for fun sometimes, try to sound like marc ribot w tom waits or something lol

[JonnyPac]

Try this... Go to a guitar store and play a left handed guitar with your standard right hand chops. Everything is upside down and whatnot. Run some muscle-memory bop lines and you will sound like a 20th century genius!

[Dad3353]

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

...pure melodic improvisation that sounds totally random - atonal if you will - weird intervalic skips and non-scalar linear excursions (if that's even possible), unresolved cadences, etc...

At last..! Someone recognising my 'style'..! I've been developing exactly this for more than 40 years (is there any other way of playing..?). I have a slightly pretentious name for it; I call it 'throwing one's fingers at the strings'. Sometimes lucky, more often not.

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

...But, of course, it generally sounds like crap!

Ah, so... That's the down side. You can't have it all. Oh, well, explains why no-one ever wanted to listen to my guitar playing...

[Tom Karol]

That I will have to try - at Guitar Center on a Saturday afternoon!

(I'm talking about the left-handed thing; Dad's post beat my response in the queue.)

[phdmerrill]

I don't really try this thing, because I'm definitely focused on getting good enough at hitting the things I'm supposed to before I purposefully avoid them (besides dabbling in a little side-slipping for fun), but I figure you can make intelligible sounding lines out of random notes, as long as you play them with an appropriate and compelling rhythm, or with a pattern in contour.

Give up harmony, give up melody, but retain musicality.

[orasnon]

Are u thinking about something along these lines? No real resolution, pure tension...

Bryan Baker With Steps Ahead - YouTube

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

How about the dean of this, Derek Bailey?

[bako]

Breaking free from habitual response, from the comfort zones of expertise and expanding language.
Sounding like crap is a possibility as is playing something beautiful and profound.
Music is dangerous but I don't believe that anyone has ever died from experimentation.
We study hard to craft our playing into a science while trying to stay connected to the power and inspiration of the mystery.

[Reg]

I try and play somewhat in that style... At gigs,(not all gigs obviously), anyway... I throw in new, something I haven't played, ideas and see where they go... try different rhythmic patterns or feels and basically jump off the cliff.... see if you can land on your feet. Same thing with harmonic schemes... once in a while we crash and burn, it's usually very entertaining ... it really begins to be like any other skill... the more you play... the easier it becomes. That cliff becomes a small step... Reg

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

Do you ever try to play lines that sound completely random?

Afterthought: This is not an invitation to post more Derek Bailey clips!

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

How about the dean of this, Derek Bailey?

How long are we talking here? Few notes? Several measures? An entire set?
Over something like Stella? Or Here Comes The Bride?

It's good to shake things up. But if you're playing out, you hit "in" and drop out again, it has a way of taking away your credibility.
Actually, it takes practice to be comfortable playing "out"; it's not the same as "not playing normally." It's a thing unto itself. To do it so you and the audience don't feel embarassed by it anyway.

David

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Here's an example of an "outside" (experimental?) guy playing a standard.

YouTube Video

And here he is with an improvisation.

YouTube Video

[Tom Karol]

Geez Reg (and TH), I wasn't talking about doing it while anyone else could actually hear me!
And again, I'm not talking about doing it over changes or even in the context of, "Free jazz;" I'm just talking about pure melodic bizarreness!
OK, BD, I'll admit it: Derek Bailey comes pretty close!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

Geez Reg (and TH), I wasn't talking about doing it while anyone else could actually hear me!
And again, I'm not talking about doing it over changes or even in the context of, "Free jazz;" I'm just talking about pure melodic bizarreness!
OK, BD, I'll admit it: Derek Bailey comes pretty close!

Derek Bailey is only close? What guitarists or other musician nails your conception? I'm curious -- a video would be a bonus.

[Tom Karol]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Derek Bailey is only close? What guitarists or other musician nails your conception? I'm curious -- a video would be a bonus.

OK, ok! You got me!

[jmstritt]

Tom

Joe Diorio put a book out many years ago called Fusion Guitar. I would really suggest that you check it out. What he did was take several common chord progressions (ATTYA, Blue Bossa, Blues, etc.) and write out two solos over the changes. One solo would be a straight ahead bebop type of solo, and the other one would be more free/ atonal. I have learned a lot from working with this book. For the atonal stuff there really isn't anything you can pinpoint and say, "Ah yes that's the method for doing that!" You just have to do it and you will pick up bits and pieces as you go. Of course Joe was the master of playing outside stuff and still making it sound beautiful. He is still a very inspirational guy for me to listen to.

[metalmike31216]

While I don't think this is exactly what you are talking about, here is some incredible outside playing within the realms of a song. Jimmy Herring is my favorite musician, and his stuff from late 90s to the early 00s is full of this kind of playing.
Project Z "Augusta's Ankle" - YouTube