Benson Picking? Evaluate my right hand technique

[setemupjoe]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I was surprised when I held my hand out and let it curl naturally, then held the pick with the pads of my thumb and finger, how natural it felt and how close I already pick like this already. Cool!

The big difference is that I always anchored with the tip of my pinky and had my hand twisted in a little more, the cup facing more towards the guitar than up towards the ceiling. I can see how using the side of the pinky allows a wider range of movement across the strings with more accuracy and less overall movement of my hand. I will work with this. I see great possibilities.

Thanx Mark!!

You're very welcome. I find this hand position very relaxing and my accuracy is vastly improved using it. Also before I played with this technique I had a tendency to rush the beat, but now my groove is much more relaxed. I attribute this to the fact that my arm is not so tense.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

I appreciate your situation. The first time I put my hand in this position and tried playing I laughed and thought "There's no way I can do this." It felt very unnatural to me. But I practiced with it every day and after a couple of weeks it all started falling into place.
You say that standing up your guitar is in a different position than when you're sitting. I always adjust my guitar strap so the guitar sits at the same height whether I'm standing or sitting. If the guitar hangs too low it would make this technique too impractical.
Regarding the angle of the pick. Look at the video I posted. I flex my thumb joint so the pick is at an angle as it strikes the string. 45 degrees is what most people mention. This softens the sound of the pick striking the string and makes it easier to glide over the strings.
Regarding the wrist movement, I would say yes, most of the movement comes from the wrist and also from small movements of the thumb and forefinger. With the hand position I showed in the video and holding the pick, practice moving the pick up and down without flapping the thumb joint up and down. If this sounds confusing I can post another video showing you what I mean. It's hard to explain.
If all else fails, I'm happy to video skype and go over the details with you.

I'm still not getting this. I spent some time last night trying to get it to work for me again and I had no success. it is very frustrating - I feel like I'm missing something fundamental. Maybe I should take you up on the Skype session.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

Better late than never. I hope this gives you some idea of how Rodney taught me about the Benson Technique.

Great stuff, thank you very much for taking the time to do the video!

[setemupjoe]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

I'm still not getting this. I spent some time last night trying to get it to work for me again and I had no success. it is very frustrating - I feel like I'm missing something fundamental. Maybe I should take you up on the Skype session.

Feel free to contact me through my website and we can set something up.

[Stu Foley]

So is the back of the pick hitting the strings first on the down stroke Mark? You make the execution look very smooth.

I recall buying a book over 20 years ago, and it wasn't new then, by Ivor Mairants about the perfect picking technique. He had written the book in response to a meeting with George Benson who had implied that if he had had a more schooled orthodox technique, then he would have had his chops together much earlier. Look at us now- trying to get the Benson technique down.

I have to say that even if Benson is not to everyones taste, and he is to mine, I do find his live performances effortless in contrast to some. When all the cats got together on stage at the Seville Expo '92 springs to mind.

[setemupjoe]

Originally Posted by Stu Foley

So is the back of the pick hitting the strings first on the down stroke Mark? You make the execution look very smooth.

Hi Stu. As soon as I have some time I'll post another video. I'll take Philco's advice and do a different camera angle that should hopefully make things clearer.

[kid deluxe]

hey guys,
anybody from this thread making progress in Benson picking?

found a great picking example; kinda rock'n'roll benson picking;

YouTube Video

man, he knows his pentatonics

[Philco]

He is holding the plectrum in a normal fashion and his wrist seems to be pivoting off the bridge. This is not Benson Picking.
At the start of the video Zack is also using his right hand fingers to pluck.

That's near impossible to do with the Benson way.
But it's easy to change back to the normal technique if you want to do some shredding in Autumn Leaves.

That pentatonic and major scale stuff lends itself to normal alternate picking.
You can go at it like a machine gun and build up a collection of licks.

You can get so good at it that they almost become a nervous tick.
Then you change the order of the licks and convince yourself that you are improvising.
This lends itself more to rock. Well .....and extremely small area of rock where shredding is appreciated by other guitar players of the same ilk.

My point is that with the changing chords in Jazz music you need to cover other technical situations. You need to cross strings and you need to swing.
Of course a good alt picker can do this (Oberg and Bireli and others)

The Benson technique is just another way to approach this. It can make certain things smoother and easier.
Crossing strings, arpeggios
I'm not sure if it's great for the machine gun effect.

[Foulds Jazz Guitars]

It took me a while to 'get' it, expect a couple of months really. I forced myself to play that way and never flipped between the old and new and it got there eventually. I warn you though, your self esteem will take a kicking as you're fumbling about on gigs and missing strings....!
A little talked about aspect is that Benson technique has an effect on the left hand too as you have to consider strings ringing open (one of the downsides to the technique) It makes you smarten up your note choices there as well, watch Benson as he goes up and down the length of the strings to get over this.

[Foulds Jazz Guitars]

Easy way to remember how it should look is that the thumb remains pretty much locked and the first finger is pointing at your left shoulder.
For me anyway..!

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by kid deluxe

hey guys,
anybody from this thread making progress in Benson picking?

found a great picking example; kinda rock'n'roll benson picking;


man, he knows his pentatonics

I abandoned my effort at trying to do Benson picking, for now at least. It is just too different from how I currently pick, and I'm busy enough with playing gigs that I can't afford to make any kind of radical change in my technique at this point. Anyway, what I did find in my quest to increase my overall speed ability what that it wasn't so much my picking hand that was the issue, nor was it really my left hand (although both could use improvement). The main issue really lies in coordinating the two hands precisely while alternate-picking.

I've been approaching this multifaceted issue in a few different ways. Firstly, I've been trying to reduce to an absolute minimum the amount of extraneous movement in my left hand when playing. I've got some specific exercises I'm doing right now for this. And I'm really concentrating on playing difficult passages slowly and accurately. I've done quite a bit of research lately and all legitimate resources concur that slow, accurate playing is the best way to increase speed. Go figure - I've been told this dozens of times but I just gotta go find out for myself.

Second, I've been trying to systemically reduce my overall body tension, since that seems to be a main impediment to just relaxing while playing. I've taken up study of the Alexander Technique to try to optimize my posture and position while playing. And I'm meditating.

Third, I'm doing "speed lick" training for about 10 minutes a day. I've isolated several fast sections of solos that I never could quite play at pace (some Clifford Brown and some Freddie Hubbard runs), and I've put them on one sheet of paper to play through with a metronome. Strict alternate picking just for the purposes of this exercise. Eventually I'll have these sections up to speed.

Lastly I'm doing the Gambale Chop Builder video daily (the cheesy one from the early 90s), and that's helping a lot. Not doing the whole thing yet, but I'm working up to it. It's a great resource for really locking in alternate picking. In my actual playing, of course, I play a lot more legato, with emphasis on slurs and swing feel, but as a practice tool, this video is right up there with Howard Roberts' SuperChops routine. I see this video being a major part of my daily routine for the rest of the year at a minimum.

The one thing I do still continue to struggle with is, funnily enough, my picking hand. How I hold the pick is still a problem. It flops around when I really start hauling ass and that, of course, reduces accuracy. I'm still experimenting with how to fix this.

Anyway, in a year's time it will be interesting to see how I'm doing.

[JakeAcci]

Jeff, I like your approach.

I've often felt it's a shame we can't be more scientific about this. After all, we're not really dealing with art, with dealing with physical and mental properties. If data could be compiled it obviously would lead a lot of us in the right direction. Think about all the crazy things people practice to increase picking speed - I bet %90 of all of it as only a quarter as efficient as it could be.

I used to be really into weight lifting and I learned that there were actually studies proving various approaches to training as more effective than others...I learned the science of it and it was about a thousand times more helpful than just following some other in-shape person's advice about what he or she did.

Wish there was more hard data about this picking issue!

Maybe some day I'll create a study, with controls and everything...


Actually I do know of one study, but I heard it second hand so I don't know if it's true. I can provide the details (that I remember) if anyone cares, but I believe the study's conclusion was that one of the best ways to increase speed was quantity of accurate repetitions, independent of the speed of those repetitions. That's been stated on this forum too...play something 100 times in a relaxed state with no mistakes...then play it 100 more!

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I learned that there were actually studies proving various approaches to training as more effective than others...I learned the science of it and it was about a thousand times more helpful than just following some other in-shape person's advice about what he or she did.

YES - exactly. The main eye-opener for me was this book: http://www.amazon.com/Art-Piano-Play...7677552&sr=8-1 Absolutely fascinating read. The gist of it: play slowly and accurately. Do a lot of repetitions. Funny thing is, I've got a girlfriend who is a clinical neuro-psychologist, and she's been telling me the same thing for years. But what the hell would she know? She's only got a doctorate degree and about 20 years of experience in the field. :-0

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Actually I do know of one study, but I heard it second hand so I don't know if it's true. I can provide the details (that I remember) if anyone cares, but I believe the study's conclusion was that one of the best ways to increase speed was quantity of accurate repetitions, independent of the speed of those repetitions. That's been stated on this forum too...play something 100 times in a relaxed state with no mistakes...then play it 100 more!

I would be very interested to see that study.

[mattymel]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Actually I do know of one study, but I heard it second hand so I don't know if it's true. I can provide the details (that I remember) if anyone cares, but I believe the study's conclusion was that one of the best ways to increase speed was quantity of accurate repetitions, independent of the speed of those repetitions. That's been stated on this forum too...play something 100 times in a relaxed state with no mistakes...then play it 100 more!

bullseye DOUBLE. this is such a guitar thing. if only no one had ever SEEN george play...

why not just learn a GB solo and try to approximate his RHYTHM before focusing on how he holds the pick? RHTYHM is what makes GB such a freak. i seriously doubt GB started his thing consciously. likely something he naturally gravitated towards as a result of what he was HEARING, not seeing. for me, any drastic change in technique has been a GRADUAL process that happened over the course of many months/years of thinking about how i wanted to something to SOUND.

i would venture that 90% of the people here would start picking more like Benson 200X quicker by playing along with one of his solos than by looking at themselves in mirrors to make sure they are still holding their picks "right".

[guitarplayer007]

When you watch Rodney pick there is hardly any movement yet the speed is amazing!!!

[Philco]

The elephant in the room is the accepted and taught " normal way to hold a plectrum"
Is it the right way just because it is the accepted way?
Is it the "best" way?
With everyone's physiology being so different can there be one "right" way.
I don't think so.

But I think everyone would LIKE to experiment.
It's just so difficult to change and the results won't come unless you commit.
And it's painful to give up everything you know.

But if you look at
1)Benson
2)Methany
3)Jesse Van Ruller
4)Rosenwinkel

None of them use the "conventional method"
They all hold the plectrum in a different way.

It's not just the Benson technique that breaks the norm.
My point is that I think for a lot of players the "normal" technique of holding a plectrum is incorrect for THEM and furthermore it's holding them back.

How to hold a plectrum.
Kind of important.

[mattymel]

or...another way to look at Benson, Metheny, Rosenwinkel...all guys that shed guitar for about 8 hours a day starting at a very young age and didn't emulate the way ANYBODY ELSE LOOKED when they were playing?

[Philco]

Originally Posted by mattymel

or...another way to look at Benson, Metheny, Rosenwinkel...all guys that shed guitar for about 8 hours a day starting at a very young age and didn't emulate the way ANYBODY ELSE LOOKED when they were playing?

Could be. It seems to be the artist with the original perspective who we are attracted to.
I also wonder, in regard to those players, if they started out using the normal technique and decided to experiment or perhaps felt that method just didn't feel comfortable for them.

I also wouldn't be surprised if "ummm....don't know...... I've just always held it that way" was their answer to the question "why do you hold the plectrum that way?"

[mattymel]

I've heard metheny use those exact words on a video i saw. he was also critical of his own picking technique. it would seems even the pros are susceptible to "bensonitis". I've also heard jim hall comment on GB picking too...so maybe we ARE all doing it wrong...but luckily there is still only ONE GB!!!

[mattymel]

...started another GB solo and the first thing I'm noticing is how lightly he touches the strings with his left hand. another BIG part of the equation...

[Philco]

Which one are you working on? (if you don't mind me asking)

I also heard somewhere that GB has no callouses on his fingers. Go figure.

[mattymel]

"clockwise" (alt. take) from the "its uptown" album. fast blues. not as fast as the original take. but he plays more shit. ill post it up when its done in about a week...GB is the baddest. he plays all these consistently ghosted left hand notes at over 250.

[Philco]

Originally Posted by mattymel

"clockwise" (alt. take) from the "its uptown" album. fast blues. not as fast as the original take. but he plays more shit. ill post it up when its done in about a week...GB is the baddest. he plays all these consistently ghosted left hand notes at over 250.

Cool. I also much prefer the alt take.
I have the music for the solo in the faster take but I don't really like that solo as much. The alt take is much more....er....coherent.....and I prefer the guitar sound over the other more distorted one.

Good luck with it.

[mattymel]

"clockwise" alt. take solo is up under "players". check it...

[Pat Clare]

Originally Posted by mattymel

bullseye DOUBLE. this is such a guitar thing. if only no one had ever SEEN george play...

why not just learn a GB solo and try to approximate his RHYTHM before focusing on how he holds the pick? RHTYHM is what makes GB such a freak. i seriously doubt GB started his thing consciously. likely something he naturally gravitated towards as a result of what he was HEARING, not seeing. for me, any drastic change in technique has been a GRADUAL process that happened over the course of many months/years of thinking about how i wanted to something to SOUND.

i would venture that 90% of the people here would start picking more like Benson 200X quicker by playing along with one of his solos than by looking at themselves in mirrors to make sure they are still holding their picks "right".

+ 1 on that!!!

[bluewaterpig]

Those pictures don't load, for me at least.

[fep]

It was a while ago that I watched the videos on this thread (especially setemupjoe's video). Then just a couple of days ago I had this epiphany and I think I finally get it. Assuming I'm now doing the Benson Technique correctly.

Maybe you didn't realize this:

YouTube Video

[setemupjoe]

Originally Posted by fep

It was a while ago that I watched the videos on this thread (especially setemupjoe's video). Then just a couple of days ago I had this epiphany and I think I finally get it. Assuming I'm now doing the Benson Technique correctly.

I'm glad I was able to help. The video looks good. My only suggestion would be to make sure you're playing rest strokes. Allow your down strokes to rest on the next string. Of course as you get faster this becomes less obvious but when you practice slowly you should make sure your pick does this. Congrats.

[Philco]

Originally Posted by fep

It was a while ago that I watched the videos on this thread (especially setemupjoe's video). Then just a couple of days ago I had this epiphany and I think I finally get it. Assuming I'm now doing the Benson Technique correctly.

Maybe you didn't realize this:

Fep, I reckon you've got it
You are one of the lucky ones who can get the angle of the hand and STILL have your wrist drape over the bridge. I cannot do this. It just means that you you can still get some muting going on.

When I look at your video it seems like you have always played like that.
It just looks right to me.
• Pretty soon you are going to feel the new "power" of this technique. The control and the liberation.
• You will notice your sound improve.....it sounds fatter to strike the string with the side of the pick.

You will also start trying to play the most difficult things. Don't be disappointed if you don't have success straight away.
Take it slow and you will have more epiphanies.

You may start to chop and change and go back to your old technique when frustration strikes.
But there is something about the new technique that will draw you back.

I have a theory on why people play Golf.
At some stage when someone is learning Golf they hit a fluke sweet shot.
Everything comes together at the moment the the ball makes contact with driver and the ball goes exactly where it was meant to go......easy.
And then they do it AGAIN.
And then.......it's gone. They are just a crap beginner again But they've tasted "it".
The feeling of getting it "right" is unforgettable. And so is the realisation that it CAN be done.
They spend the rest of their days trying to get back to that sweet spot.

Same with this new technique.
I used to find myself thinking about how great the Benson technique felt when I got it right for a moment or two.
I would actually wake up in the morning thinking about it.
So whenever I felt like going back to the old technique I had used all my playing life I remembered that feeling of effortless control that the Benson technique had allowed me to glimpse.

Good luck and remember it will take some time for you to gain complete control......but you will.

Oh and Fep.....the way your little finger is resting on the guard......perfect. The little finger is your friend......it will always keep your pick at the same distance from the string.

[Spirit59]

Originally Posted by mattymel

bullseye DOUBLE. this is such a guitar thing. if only no one had ever SEEN george play...

why not just learn a GB solo and try to approximate his RHYTHM before focusing on how he holds the pick? RHTYHM is what makes GB such a freak. i seriously doubt GB started his thing consciously. likely something he naturally gravitated towards as a result of what he was HEARING, not seeing. for me, any drastic change in technique has been a GRADUAL process that happened over the course of many months/years of thinking about how i wanted to something to SOUND.

i would venture that 90% of the people here would start picking more like Benson 200X quicker by playing along with one of his solos than by looking at themselves in mirrors to make sure they are still holding their picks "right".

Don't assume that everyone's reason for investigating the Benson picking thing arises out of wanting to emulate GB - tone or otherwise.

I've been at this thing for over 40 years and only a few years ago decided to give it a try. The impetus for me was the promise of a certain difference in tone, which I'm now able to get from angling the pick back that way, with the right pick for me.

It wasn't GB that sold me - it was Adam Rogers, in both his straight ahead context and his more fusion thing with Chris Potter....not just the sound but the way his right hand seemed so right holding the pick that way...

It was a little scary for me at first, considering all the time and energy I'd put into developing my right hand in a more conventional manner but I'm happy to report that I'm still able to pick in the conventional way - without really practicing it.