Benson Picking? Evaluate my right hand technique

**M-ster** · 11-16-2011, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

... When I changed to the Benson technique, it was weird and uncomfortable to begin with. I would never had done it if I hadn't seen someone who was a master of this style up close. That was Rodney Jones. He showed me the style and worked with me for a year to get me up and running. Through the months of painful relearning I just kept thinking "a day at a time, and one day I'll be able to play what he's playing." ... Rodney's technique floored me from the first day.

I keep watching and hoping someone will share the Rodney approach to tackling this. I even tried to email Rodney (via his website), but he didn't respond.

So, Joe, how does Rodney start you off? What were the exercises that sold you or trained you to use this picking technique?

I've watched Benson videos and played around with it, some. But, if one wanted to get serious, where does one start?

Thanks for any insight you might provide.

**M-ster** · 11-16-2011, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

... There's a guy who plays around here who's probably considered one of the best guitarists in Boston right now...picks every note, can rip any tempo...gets called for plenty of modern stuff, doesn't at all sound like a throwback. Could PM you links if interested

Interested. Bet many of us would be. Why not post it?

**Jazzpunk** · 11-16-2011, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by M-ster

Interested. Bet many of us would be. Why not post it?

First rule of the Benson Picking Club is that you don't talk about the Benson Picking Club!

**fep** · 11-17-2011, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I'd be interested to know - are there specific passages that give you trouble? Could you play an example of a specific line you've worked on but can't get up to tempo, and then isolate the part of the line that starts breaking up as you get the tempo higher? That would reveal technical weakness more so than grip positioning, imo.

OK here's a passage that I can't get to tempo. Let's forget about comparing this to the Benson thing, just evaluate it on it's own merits or lack threof:

**JakeAcci** · 11-17-2011, 04:12 PM

Cool, this is fun to talk about...

The big picture from my perspective: find your technical strengths and work those to your advantage via re-fingerings or changing which pick strokes you're using. Alternatively, isolate pairs of notes and find what movements within the line are causing you the most trouble (then groups of three notes, then four) You'll find some parts are stronger than others.

Also, as with the other video, some of the 'mistakes' indicate to me coordination problems or left hand problems rather than picking problems, so that is something to investigate as well.

Combining all the possibilities I mentioned with "economy" picking you get a lot of options and different ways to play this, looking for symmetry in the right movements, making the right hand movements more consistent...I didn't mention many/any of the possible ways you could combine consecutive downstrokes or consecutive upstrokes (with or without slurs)

**fep** · 11-17-2011, 04:24 PM

Hey Jake,

You did nail the way and position of how I'm doing it with my left hand.

Great video and ideas, I'm going to play with the different positions and spurts.

Bummer about my tensing up, I really don't want to do that. That's why I don't like playing from the elbow, playing from the elbow tenses me up. My goal is to be relaxed, and for me to do that I've got to try to have it come from the wrist.

Edit: It is inspiring to see how fast and clean you play. There must also be an innate bit to picking fast... perhaps slow twitch vs. fast twitch muscles? Also, the brain's ability to coordinating the right and left hands together?

**JakeAcci** · 11-17-2011, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by fep

Great video and ideas, I'm going to play with the different positions and spurts.

Awesome, I'm glad you got something out of it. Yeah there are so many different ways you could do it - I'd even isolate groups of 2-4 notes and see what is fastest but still within the tone you want.

Bummer about my tensing up, I really don't want to do that. That's why I don't like playing from the elbow, playing from the elbow tenses me up. My goal is to be relaxed, and for me to do that I've got to try to have it come from the wrist.

For what it's worth, that super fast stuff I was doing was kinda from the elbow. I'm not entirely sure. But yeah, doing it tense is no good...it has to be relaxed, otherwise you can get joint/muscle problems, and it really makes it hard to move past a certain tempo. Also, I think it negatively affects tone.

Edit: It is inspiring to see how fast and clean you play. There must also be an innate bit to picking fast... perhaps slow twitch vs. fast twitch muscles? Also, the brain's ability to coordinating the right and left hands together?

Thanks! I actually have pretty imbalanced picking technique...switching on downstrokes is as fast as I want it to be, switching on upstrokes or mixing them has a fairly low speed cap, despite how much I've worked on it. I suck at picking from my wrist even at relatively moderate tempos. All the more reason to utilize my strengths, right?

I'm sort of a fast/fidgety/high energy person and that might have something to do with it...but I have worked on a lot of very detailed technical stuff on guitar and learned a lot...I really like the challenge of guitar technique! it's really fascinating to methe way different people try to solve the problem of playing fast lines on guitar...everybody from Paul Gilbert to Jimmy Bruno. Tim Miller also has a very interesting approach, same with Holdsworth or Kurt Rosenwinkel. FWIW, NONE of these guys are purely position players who alternate pick everything.

**Philco** · 11-17-2011, 06:51 PM

Hey fep one thing (a big thing) that differs between you and Jake.

You are playing a small bodied guitar and Jake is playing a big one.

When you put your picking hand in position it is being held up by your shoulder.
It can't be helped. To hold your hand going over the bridge and being exactly where you want it to be is requiring your shoulder muscles to hold it up.....before you even begin picking.

Jake's arm is resting over the body of the instrument. The body is supporting the weight of his shoulder. The effort of Jakes hand assuming the picking position is much less than yours.
You are already tense by just holding your hand in position. The big muscles are already working.
Most players who play smaller bodied instruments do this. It's just the way that things have evolved and people haven't really studied what's happening with the entire arm and shoulder.
Even though Jake isn't using the Benson technique I think that playing a large bodied instrument is more supportive of the shoulder and frees up the wrist and hand.

One of the advantages of the Benson technique is that your shoulder is relaxed. The big bodied guitar is tucked up under the shoulder and the arm kind of drapes over the body. The side of the hand or just the side of the little finger is resting on the pick guard.
You are NOT holding up your arm with your shoulder and your arm is relaxed.
Then your hand is free to move. It's a wonderful and liberating feeling.

Now I'm not saying that this one "shoulder" thing will solve any coordination problems but it will give you some control back....that your shoulder is taking away. Players have just taken the "playing position" for granted. Perhaps it's not great?

That's my theory anyway. Make of it what you will.

**JakeAcci** · 11-17-2011, 06:59 PM

Hey Phil, interesting observations. However, I play a solid body half the time anyway and do the same stuff. Also, I play with a footstool so the size of the body of the guitar doesn't affect my right arm much.

**Philco** · 11-17-2011, 09:42 PM

I mean it as a more general observation for guitar playing in general.

It seems that lot's of players have a problem with picking technique.
Evaluating every aspect of what that part of the body is doing could uncover the source of the problem.

People who are great pickers could probably get great results whilst standing on their heads in a zinc bathtub facing North.

Mere mortals need to explore every option and question things that are taken for granted.

I play a Tele and a jazz box. Like you I can play the same on both. But I notice it's way more comfortable and "free" on the jazz box.
For me it's the resting shoulder.
Thought I'd put the concept out there.

**M-ster** · 11-17-2011, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

First rule of the Benson Picking Club is that you don't talk about the Benson Picking Club!

Dang! I knew it!

**M-ster** · 11-18-2011, 04:42 PM

Here's Rodney doing it ...

**setemupjoe** · 11-18-2011, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by M-ster

I keep watching and hoping someone will share the Rodney approach to tackling this. I even tried to email Rodney (via his website), but he didn't respond.

So, Joe, how does Rodney start you off? What were the exercises that sold you or trained you to use this picking technique?

I've watched Benson videos and played around with it, some. But, if one wanted to get serious, where does one start?

Thanks for any insight you might provide.

M-ster, I'd be happy to tell you anything you need to know, but there's no secrets involved that I can tell you that make it any easier.

I'm heading out to a gig but tomorrow I will post a few exercises that Rodney gave me on our first few lessons. This is all from 20 years ago so I'll have to dig them up. The main thing to remember is this. Get the hand position right. Hold the pick the correct way. Get the correct angle for the pick. Use sweep picking going from the low strings to the high strings. Use cross picking going from the high strings to the low strings.

**brwnhornet59** · 11-18-2011, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

I will post a few exercises that Rodney gave me on our first few lessons. This is all from 20 years ago so I'll have to dig them up. The main thing to remember is this. Get the hand position right. Hold the pick the correct way. Get the correct angle for the pick. Use sweep picking going from the low strings to the high strings. Use cross picking going from the high strings to the low strings.

That would be great Joe. I look forward to your post Sir!

**M-ster** · 11-18-2011, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

That would be great Joe. I look forward to your post Sir!

Double ditto.

**Philco** · 11-19-2011, 02:23 AM

Someone has done a compilation of GB and that right hand.

**M-ster** · 11-19-2011, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Philco

Someone has done a compilation of GB and that right hand.

Hmm ... his harmonic vocabulary ain't bad, either!

**fep** · 11-19-2011, 01:22 PM

The benson video at 4:49-4:50

**Philco** · 11-19-2011, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by fep

The benson video at 4:49-4:50

Yeah he loves those chromatic things. If you watch closely he does some similar sounding things ascending a descending by simply sliding and picking once per fret. Jack Z has some clips on YT demonstrating that technique.

A lot of those little fast descending triplets (mainly blues) are achieved with a small "picking slide"...sometimes only 2 frets. This puts your hand in a whole new position with very little effort.
Pat Martino also employs this technique and demonstrates it in his first video.

On the other hand (so to speak) you have Bireli who can do similar stuff and doesn't use the Benson technique.
That's what I love about the guitar. It's a DIY instrument.

**kid deluxe** · 11-23-2011, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

I'm heading out to a gig but tomorrow I will post a few exercises that Rodney gave me on our first few lessons. This is all from 20 years ago so I'll have to dig them up. The main thing to remember is this. Get the hand position right. Hold the pick the correct way. Get the correct angle for the pick. Use sweep picking going from the low strings to the high strings. Use cross picking going from the high strings to the low strings.

that would be great joe!!!

Nuff Said · 11-23-2011, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

I will post a few exercises that Rodney gave me on our first few lessons. This is all from 20 years ago so I'll have to dig them up.

That would be great Joe, we're all looking forward to them.

Nuff

**setemupjoe** · 11-23-2011, 01:33 PM

Sorry I'm dragging my heels guys. I will get this to you ASAP. I'm under a sea of sheet music right now on a deadline. I'm copying music for the orchestral sessions for a movie and also copying for a video game, both need to be finished on Friday, (didn't anyone tell them about the Thanksgiving holidays?) If I can't get to it this week I will definitely post stuff early next week.