Modal jazz improvisation

[SammieWammie]

This is a new aspect of jazz to me, I'm wondering how to solo over modal jazz without sounding boring. Songs like So What, Cantaloupe Island, funk vamps over one chord, those kinds of things.

[JakeAcci]

I'm not an expert at modal playing, but for single note soloing I think one of the best things you can do, even if you're staying within the mode, is to vary the intervals (melodically) between the notes you are using. To me, there is nothing worse then hearing somebody just playing all 2nds and 3rds up and down a scale over something like Impressions. 4ths, 5ths, 7ths, 9ths, etc, there is a lot of territory to explore there. I get a lot of mileage out of that concept.

For "outside" playing I think it's helpful to learn how to hear all 12 notes against the given chord type (m7 here...). Learn to sing and hear the 1, b3, 5 and b7, then also the standard tensions 9, 11, 13, and then also the non standard ones: b9, maj3, #11, b13, maj7.

[JakeAcci]

Also you can think off of all the different chords within the mode. For D dorian, traids being Dm, F, Am, C, Em, G, Bdim. sevenths Dm7, Fmaj7, Am7, Cmaj7, Em7, G7, Bm7b5

then you play off of chords that aren't in the mode...

oh, another thing I like to is make up scales that consist of the 4 chord tones of the seventh chord, but maybe something else whacky, like for a m7 - 1, b3, #4, 5, 6, b7, 7

[TruthHertz]

Many different approaches all of which I'm sure are better than mine, but I'd say to think of it not as a space to fill in a mode but a way to explore seven notes. Think of ways to develop an idea, try to use space to "frame" an idea, take note of what that idea was, direction, dynamic, all the elements you know, and know you have the freedom to build a solo by elaborating, contrasting, extending or abandoning that idea. You can make a beautiful solo with the finite and infinite aspects of a mode that way. Listen to some modal pieces that Coltrane did with Miles, he'll take a motif, sometimes even a quote from another player like Sonny Rollins, and develop an idea from it. As I said, it's just one approach but I learn a lot that way.
David

[AmundLauritzen]

Quartal/Quintal/Suspended ideas work well for long stretches of static harmony like you find on modal tunes. You can get all these intervallic sounds from the pentatonic scale. Some quartal chord voicings become sus2 voicings when inverted. You can try to build these from the pentatonic scale and use them as frameworks for lines. You can lower the seventh of your pentatonic minor scale to make a minor sixth pentatonic. This one is particularly Brecker-ish, at least to my ears.

A good concept to make outside sounds is to divide the octave into equal parts and use each interval to build a pentatonic scale on. If you're playing on So what for example, try dividing the D octave into two parts, a tritone(D and Ab). Now you can play D minor pentatonic to Ab minor pentatonic and back to D minor.
Try to divide the octave into three equal parts and you get minor thirds, a diminished chord(D,F,Ab,B). Try sequencing pentatonics from each of these roots. I find that the more I divide the octave, the less I can stay at one point of the division before it sounds really out. So the more I divide the octave, the faster I have to move to the next scale. The tension also builds more gradually in minor thirds than in tritones in my opinion.
I have not yet experimented with dividing further(whole tone, chromatic).
That will probably sound far out there, and would need an experienced ear to make it sound musical.

I think the tritone division is a good place to start. Try sequencing D minor and Ab minor pentatonics. Then try moving in minor thirds.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

I have not yet experimented with dividing further(whole tone, chromatic).
That will probably sound far out there, and would need an experienced ear to make it sound musical.

Joseph Schillinger's technique of symmetrical scales addresses this approach exactly and in depth. You can create synthetic scales, each identical and each using a small "germ" of the larger 12 tones. Then, as you point out, you can run the scale from each tonic and a larger pattern emerges: a pattern of sounds in symmetrical configuration. Check out Schillinger's theory of multiple tonics. Late in his career people like Coltrane turned to Philadelphia theorist genius Roland Wiggins for new sounds and this was one option that was offered.
David

[AmundLauritzen]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Joseph Schillinger's technique of symmetrical scales addresses this approach exactly and in depth. You can create synthetic scales, each identical and each using a small "germ" of the larger 12 tones. Then, as you point out, you can run the scale from each tonic and a larger pattern emerges: a pattern of sounds in symmetrical configuration. Check out Schillinger's theory of multiple tonics. Late in his career people like Coltrane turned to Philadelphia theorist genius Roland Wiggins for new sounds and this was one option that was offered.
David

Wow! Thanks! I'll investigate that system. It seems to be an integral part of the Coltrane/Brecker/Tyner school of playing.

[JonnyPac]

Good posts, all y'all!

Here's a lesson I threw together quite a while ago on basic modal jazz vamps and soloing. It's a little embarrassing now after many long sessions in the woodshed, but perhaps you'll find some of it useful. Modal jazz is my total favorite form of music. Perhaps I'll make a new video to cover more, etc.

YouTube Video

Here's a recent original modal tune played at a rehearsal with my new group Moondrool if you want to hear an actual song.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9229110/Moondrool/ripples.mp3


From Kieth Waters Studio Recordings of the Miles Davis Quintet Oxford University Press 2011:

MODAL JAZZ:

1. Modal scales for improvisation (or as a source of accompaniment)
2. Slow harmonic rhythm (single chord for 4, 8, 16 or more bars)
3. Pedal point harmonies (focal bass pitch or shifting harmonies over a primary bass pitch)
4. Absence or limited use of functional harmonic progressions (such as V-I or ii-V-I) in accompaniment or improvisation
5. Harmonies characteristic of jazz after 1959 (Suspended fourth- "sus" - chords, slash chords, harmonies named for modes; i.e., phrygian, aeolian harmonies)
6. Prominent use melodic and/or harmonic perfect fourths

[JonnyPac]

Just in case anyone needs 'em:

[JonnyPac]

Here's a big wad of modal learning material...

Diatonic Modes on the Guitar Fretboard in Music Theory, Guitar Lessons and Song Writing Tools Forum

Enjoy!

[jayx123]

Some great pointers in this lesson by greg howe:
Greg Howe Improvisation Guitar Lesson - www.greghowe.com/lessons - YouTube

[nion]

everybody said a lot about harmony and scales but nobody said anything about RHYTHM, focus on rhythm, be varied, start and end phrases on unexpected places of the bar, play across the barline, play odd groupings of notes...

check out Trane and Brecker

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Just in case anyone needs 'em

Nice diagrams you wouldn't happen to have ones for the modes of melodic / harmonic minor also ?

[bobby d]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Good posts, all y'all!

Here's a lesson I threw together quite a while ago on basic modal jazz vamps and soloing. It's a little embarrassing now after many long sessions in the woodshed, but perhaps you'll find some of it useful. Modal jazz is my total favorite form of music. Perhaps I'll make a new video to cover more, etc.


Here's a recent original modal tune played at a rehearsal with my new group Moondrool if you want to hear an actual song.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9229110/Moondrool/ripples.mp3


From Kieth Waters Studio Recordings of the Miles Davis Quintet Oxford University Press 2011:

MODAL JAZZ:

Your video conveys what modal Jazz is better than merely talking about it. Thanks.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by nion

everybody said a lot about harmony and scales but nobody said anything about RHYTHM, focus on rhythm, be varied, start and end phrases on unexpected places of the bar, play across the barline, play odd groupings of notes...

check out Trane and Brecker

That's my biggest focus right now. Hal Galper's Forward Motion and some of the innovations of Bill Evans are my inspiration. Surly the most overlooked side of jazz performance. Rhythm and phrasing is #1, IMHO.

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Nice diagrams you wouldn't happen to have ones for the modes of melodic / harmonic minor also ?

I have some, but I prefer to used the V of HM with a #9. It makes the pattern 8 notes; therefore it's easy to add the extra note in without a big map. As far as MM goes, I'm more prone to superimpose the basic "definitive" subset over the given lower structure/bass note.

Originally Posted by bobby d

Your video conveys what modal Jazz is better than merely talking about it. Thanks.

Thanks! I'll make a fresher one this year sometime- it will be much better. Glad it helped though.

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

I have some, but I prefer to used the V of HM with a #9. It makes the pattern 8 notes; therefore it's easy to add the extra note in without a big map. As far as MM goes, I'm more prone to superimpose the basic "definitive" subset over the given lower structure/bass note.

Ah I meant to ask whether you colnd post the diagrams for the MM modes too cause I would like to print them both out and stick them on my wall Ah and I'm afraid you lost with superimposiing subset thingy ...

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Ah I meant to ask whether you colnd post the diagrams for the MM modes too cause I would like to print them both out and stick them on my wall Ah and I'm afraid you lost with superimposiing subset thingy ...

I have no MM chart with all 7 modes made (yet). Here is the one you can print- I'll explain the subset thing in another thread soon (though I am a bit scared of troll attacks- every time I post a bunch of excerpts I get a lot of heated banter from certain autonomous members and hit-n-runs. It's kind of annoying when I am trying to help).

[JonnyPac]

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/jazzg...es-chords.html

Check this out on MM.