Jazz Rhythm

[JakeAcci]

I don't like the idea of discussing rhythm without harmony. I firmly believe that the elements of music are so interdependent that looking at rhythm would be a bit counterproductive. I've had many frustrating talks with drummers about the "accents" that harmony (chords and lines with strong guide-tones) can have on the time and meter though they were not hit harder, etc. Dynamics, accents, phrasing, choice-of-note, bass movement, all factor in.

A basic example: If you change chord on beat 4 instead of beat 1 (without necessarily playing it any louder) you will successfully "anticipate" the upcoming bar by one beat, and in so doing, be de-emphasizing one to a degree. Strong notes/chords are like "downbeats". What you are playing with is the "harmonic rhythm"; some drummers don't even know the term!

Hmm I'm really not getting you here. We're all constantly isolating and discussing harmony (I don't need to look too far to find examples) independent of rhythm, so why would you object to putting some of the rhythmic elements under a microscope?

The way I've practiced certain rhythmic concepts is to first just be able to clap it or sing it, then to be able to improvise with it over a vamp, and then finally use it over changes or a standard. Of course this process varies greatly depending on what rhythmic idea we're talking about, but my point in this thread initially is that I think it is sometimes essential to isolate rhythmic concepts, and that student jazz musicians (and a lot of jazz pedagogy) tend to overlook rhythmic ideas. It should be obvious that the end result is then using the concepts in real music, with all musical elements present, just as the end result of learning new voicings should ideally be using them in time in an actual musical setting.

Maybe I'm idealistic, but I hear so many guitar players who phrase so weakly and seem to have such a weak grasp of the pulse and I think so much of these problems could be resolved by some time spent with some simple exercises. Some of them could involve just clapping, isolating the rhythms, but generally the goal is to quickly get the idea in play with a 'full' musical setting.

[JakeAcci]

Licktionaries, rhythms from other countries and technical lingo are all great, but the best way to develop various rhythmic patterns is to practice, or play live. As a guitarist I listen heavily to the drummer and the bass player; I tend to lock on to their groove and find a place in between them. It is not as easy as it sounds, but it is attainable. Jazz and foreign countries aren't the only resources if you are looking for something different. R&B music of the 60's thru 80's is a good resource (you don't have to look too far to find this). Paul Jackson Jr is one of the best rhythm guitar players to listen to. He also has some tutorials on rhythm on you tube. On great group of the 70's was Chic, who had heavy guitar rhythms; another group to listen to is Earth Wind and Fire. In order to get to a complex rhytnm, you must first develop a good grove and expand that grove. I find that great syncopated rhytm is nothing but soloing using chords.

I think there's a common misinterpretation that when somebody talks about "rhythm" that they're talking about "rhythm guitar playing." For clarity here I'll refer to that as "rhythmic comping." Being aware of time and rhythm while soloing (or even just playing the melody) is just as important, though there is obviously more freedom.

My rant honestly is more about solos than comping. When I listen to some of the giants play lines, like Herbie, Joe Henderson, Charlie Parker, Bill Evans, really just anybody, they all have distinct and killer time feels and sense of rhythm. Their lines contain undeniable rhythmic logic and, even if they are ahead or behind, impeccable rhythmic accuracy.

Anyway, I agree that some of the Funk and R&B comping stuff has some pretty cool and sometimes complex rhythms.

I also totally agree that one of the best ways to get better time is to play with a rhythm section that has great time and just try to lock in as hard as possible - while either soloing or comping. When I play with a drummer I look at his ride cymbal and try to get my lines to be singing right along with it.

[JoeShmoe]

Hey gents, reading over this thread and getting excited to practice what I can. I was wondering if there is a resource available on youtube or other visual/audio aid to follow to help me out. Just a video of some guy practicing along with a metronome with the topic at hand would be great. The Bill Evans youtube link was great but hard to follow for me.

[JonnyPac]

Jake, I agree that rhythm is overlooked in harmonic study. I just made a fre video lessons trying to bring more emphasis on that relationship, etc. The reason I dig Hal Galper, Bert Ligon, and Bill Evans so much is because of their fully integrated concepts of music. For now, yes, lets continue to rant about rhythm until a balance is met!!

[patskywriter]

… I remain amazed at how many mainstream jazz gtr players cant play a funk rhythm worth a damn. It's embarrassing - for them, and they don't even know it half the time.

talk about embarrassing—check out "teenager" by oscar peterson, with joe pass on guitar. pass is so far out of his element as he tries to play faux funk that i cringe every time i listen to it. it's delightfully bad.

[yamahaguitark]

When soloing or playing the melody, I think it is necessary to learn rhythm and phrasing, as well as choosing the right notes (even in improvisational settings). I work on each autonomously to develop each skill as subsets, and then combine them in order to develop good solos and have a better sense of voicing melodies. When you practice clapping rhythmic patterns, you are independently developing a sense of rhythm without harmony. I totally agree that they are interdependent, but the above method helps me as I practice and perform. I tend to use old fashioned rubato as motivation when doing solos and melodies.

[jasonc]

Another exercise (from David Baker I think) is to pick a bebop tune and take the rhythm of the head and play different notes but keep the same rhythm. So if you picked something like Confirmation then you first just play the melodies rhythm with one note, then practice playing the arps. and scales, then eventually soloing all while keeping the melodic rhythm. It's very difficult for me at least.

[JakeAcci]

Jasonc, totally...

[yaclaus]

At a recent jam session the opening band was cooking with "all blues" in a very uptempo style. Suddenly the bass player and drummer switched to a slower 4/4 style while the soloist was staying busy. At another point they did it the other way and transformed the rhythm to a very fast 4/4 style. This modulation amazed me completely - I know that the harmonic rhythm cannot change, but still I find it difficult to hear the original changes let alone the original tempo while they are playing. If I remember correctly they have to keep the original rhythm internally while playing the other. Definitely something I´d love to work on, but your time has to be quite good already to break into such expeditions.

[JakeAcci]

It's a cool effect. Things like that can be practiced and I think it can be a little less complicated than you might think. If All Blues is in 6/4 and they turned it into a slower 4/4, they took the dotted quarter note and started feeling that as the quarter note. Keeping the form is simple - instead of every measure lasting 6 counts, it now lasts 4 counts, but the measure lengths stay the same. It's good to practice hearing the melody in different ways like this. To go back to the 6, from the 4, you start hearing the new quarter note triplet as the quarter note and you're back in 6/4.

The simplest example of this is switching between double time/normal time/half time. It's really good to try to hear the melodies this way.

Switching between "3" feels" and "4" feels is something I've worked on a lot. The funny thing is that when you experiment with triplets a lot in 4/4 and then play with dotted values in 3/4 you start to see and hear the similarities between the meters. There are a lot of rhythms that, on their own, could be just as easily notated in 3/4 as in 4/4 (or 12/8, 6/8, etc)

[mattymel]

i find it easiest just to listen to Miles' quartet on "4 and more"/Plugged Nickel...if you hear it enough times it doesn't seem that weird and you don't have to think about it as much.

[JakeAcci]

Rich, so far I've heard you comment that the following players "rushed:"

Bill Evans
Oscar Pterson
NHOP

Given the heights that these players reached, do you think the amount that they rushed is significant enough to really be worthy of criticism? I mean after all, there's no law that says that music and rhythms have to be metronomic and that tempos have to stay constant. There are some Bird recordings I have where they wind up at quite a different tempo than when they started...still good music.

I mean, I'm playing devil's advocate to a certain extent, because I am highly critical of the jazz improviser's rhythmic abilities, but I usually only have something to say about amateurs, people I see on YouTube or at jam sessions. I mean, Bill Evans has to be doing something right to be Bill Evans. Wes was out of tune sometimes, nobody seems to mind that much.

[JakeAcci]

Sure, you're right. I just notice those things, and (as I'm sure you do) make a mental note about it. I personally don't like it, but that of course means almost nothing to other people - only to me.
Should we pretend they didn't rush? Should we now start trying to cultivate rushing in our own playing? Any decent musician is a full time critic too - and a harsh one at that.
I'm pretty sure the greatest players were the harshest critics too....I'm betting Bill hated hearing himself rush....

I see what you mean. I guess the middle ground is to just pick our battles in the practice room and strive to be aware - no one is immune from criticism.

Interestingly though, I'd much rather hear somebody really push themselves in a conceptual way with rhythms even if it means getting lost or losing the tempo, than stay extremely constant with the pulse but be playing boring.

[mattymel]

After listening to Bill do that Piano Jazz program (where he plays solo unaccompanied) it's obvious that rushing is not a problem. I think those things have much more to do with group dynamics than any single person.

[Jazzpunk]

Interestingly though, I'd much rather hear somebody really push themselves in a conceptual way with rhythms even if it means getting lost or losing the tempo, than stay extremely constant with the pulse but be playing boring.

I agree Jake. It is nice when a player can do both though!

[yaclaus]

Heres one to keep you occupied for a while. Heard about off-beat quater note triplets? they sound kind of "jumpy". Skip every second stroke and you get one bad ass polyrhytm. There will be 3 hits in a bar - 1(second triplet gets hit) 2(third triplet gets hit) 3(no triplet gets hit) 4(first triplet gets hit). The triplets I´m refering to here are 8th note triplets

[JakeAcci]

Yes, you could write it like

1 trip let 2 trip let, abbreviated to 1 T L:

1 T L 2 T L 3 T L 4 T L

Q note triplets bolded:

1 T L 2 T L 3 T L 4 T L

displaced back by an 8th note triplet:

1 T L 2 T L 3 T L 4 T L

half note triplets, could also think of it as groups of 4 8th note triplets:

1 T L 2 T L 3 T L 4 T L

You could start the above on any beat (displace it by any 8th note triplet). for example:

1 T L 2 T L 3 T L 4 T L

One way of stating your example is that they are half note triplets starting on "LET" of beat 1:

1 T L 2 T L 3 T L 4 T L

[yaclaus]

Yes, you could write it like


You could start the above on any beat (displace it by any 8th note triplet). for example:

1 T L 2 T L 3 T L 4 T L
L

This was the one I was trying to state. Thanks for the way of writing it - in Denmark we use a rhythm system called "digedage" the rhythm above would be like this:

di BA da di ba DA di ba da DI ba da

the weakness of this is that you don´t have the count of the bar.

I extracted the rhythm from Ari Hoenig and Johannes Weidenmullers DVD on polyrhythm. It´s very mind boggling and fascinating to me. Trying to learn it slowly and applying all of it to simple forms such as the blues.

[JakeAcci]

A concrete practice suggestion. I wound up writing this out in another thread in response to a specific rhythmic question, but I realize that this is what I consider good "basic training" for accurately feeling all the 8th note subdivisions:

1. Set a metronome to give a different click on beat 1 so that it goes ONE two three four ONE two three four etc. Practice clapping only on beat one, locking in exactly, then only on beat two, then only on beat three, then beat four, then the "and of one," then the "and of two" etc until you've done all eight eighth notes. For each spot on the measure don't move on until you've totally nailed it.

2. Try the same with swing feeling rather than straight 8th notes.

3. Try at a variety of tempos...you'll find a lower limit and upper limit of comfort. Take a tempo you are really comfortable with and try 7bpm slower and 7bpm faster. You're likely to rush and drag.

4. Try it in 3/4 time as well, variety of tempos, both swing feel and straight.

5. When you feel comfortable with everything in steps 1-4, then set the metronome for half notes rather than quarter notes and repeat all the steps. In 4/4 try with both betas 2&4 and beats 1&3. Incidentally, it's actually good to practice 3/4 time this way: One (two) three (one) two (three) - the metronome clicking at half notes clicks on the non-parenthetical beats.

6. Once that is good, set the metronome as a whole note. If your tempo is less than 160, you'll have to use a drum machine, sequencing program, or unconventional metronome to get a click slower than 40 bpm. There are a few apps and websites out there that can go quite low. In 3/4 set the click as a dotted half note. One (two) (three) One (two) (three)

And that's it. Taking things a bit further and bring it to the guitar, repeat all steps with just single notes - doing something simple like playing the roots of a I VI ii V, or the roots of a 12 bar blues. Once that is good, then chord stabs replace the claps, again maybe for a I VI ii V or for a 12 bar blues.

And of course, you can go further than a whole note - a click once every two measures, a click once every four measures, etc.