Rhythm rant

[Reg]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Thanks Reg, I'm aware of the theories of clave and such, I just haven't listened to enough music from these different countries to feel the rhythms properly. Latin rhythms aren't really a priority right now.

Hey Jake...cool, wasn't really directing comments towards you, more in general to all. There's no holy grail for most musicianship skill. Simple putting in the organized required time on technique or application. Most seem to spend more time and energy looking for the perfect source.
Getting back to clave... the feel is that next rhythmic level of performance of being aware of where and how your playing on or off the beat. Listening will get you there, but with out being aware of that concept... it takes a while... there are a lot of feels... Reg

[Richb]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Great topic and rant, Jake. I'm right with you there! I've always had to "work" on rhythm; whereas melody and (especially) harmony feel like play. In Zappa and prog rock you'll find overt uses of polyrhythms and such- these don't really get my goat though. Guys like Bill Evans, Herbie, Wayne Shorter, Monk, Bird, Miles, Andrew Hill and Joe Henderson inspire and amaze me much more.

I just started a thread at AAJ discussing Bill Evan's rhythmic approach- I'll re-post some in this topic since it seems appropriate. Any insights you make have here are welcome.

The idea of Bill's famous "Floating Pulse", "Elastic Meter", "non-obvious pulse", "phrasing across the bar line", and "de-emphasizing the beat" has me intrigued. I am seeking a "method" to it, if there is such a thing.

Textbook quotes about Bill Evans:


In this he explains some of his ideas and demonstrates in a tune:
Bill Evans on Piano Jazz with Marian McPartland - Part 1 - YouTube

He was known for "leaning forward". I think his displacements created that effect, because he never actually rushed.

I have a kneejerk reaction when I read textbook paragraphs that bumble on about "floating pulse, and other idiotic descriptions.

You want the clear version without the obfuscation:

Evans' concept w/ rhythm was about:

1. de-tripletizing the 8ths - making them flatter and more legato
2. hiding the "1" of the bar
3. The bass players in his band were as adept as hiding the "1" as he was...Especially Eddie Gomez.
4. Evans DEFINITELY rushed. and pretty badly at that. Especially in the later years. It's what caused Ed Gomez to quit.

And that's it. No need for mystical tomes about floating.....

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by Richb

I have a kneejerk reaction when I read textbook paragraphs that bumble on about "floating pulse, and other idiotic descriptions.

You want the clear version without the obfuscation:

Evans' concept w/ rhythm was about:

1. de-tripletizing the 8ths - making them flatter and more legato
2. hiding the "1" of the bar
3. The bass players in his band were as adept as hiding the "1" as he was...Especially Eddie Gomez.
4. Evans DEFINITELY rushed. and pretty badly at that. Especially in the later years. It's what caused Ed Gomez to quit.

And that's it. No need for mystical tomes about floating.....

Wow. Thanks for the fresh air. I've been beating myself up really hard this week trying to wrap my head around all of this. I listened to him in the late 70's on the All of You displacement example and then switched back to some classic performances from 1965. I personally like the late 50's and 60's work far more than his later years. He had a great feel that rings in my bones during most of that era, despite having not yet "matured" all the use of displacement and inner voices. I was unaware that he really rushed and Gomez left over it- do you have more information you can share?

And by the way, what does "playing over the measure line" really mean??? Don't all competent jazz musicians play over the bar? Did Louis Armstrong, Bird, and other seminal jazzers not play over the bar line? Why should any one jazz musician get more credit for this than another? If jazz had no push, pull, and syncopation (all which can occur on any beat) it wouldn't be jazz at all, IMHO. If I am missing something, PLEASE let me know. I am really frustrated with "so and so can play over the bar line" statements!!!

[JakeAcci]

JP ya gotta stop this - it was ALL OF YOU. I'm sure Bill wouldn't have been too happy to play All of Me.

[JonnyPac]

Oops. Got it fixed.

[eddy b.]

Great thread...one thing I do is to play the rhythm of bop heads without the notes ie play Confirmation on one note. it opens a world of rhythms, and another thing for overall time keeping is skanking along with Bob Marley and the Wailers, great for voicings and it's not as easy as it seems, along with learning Family Man's bass lines, that rhythmic approach is pretty tight and syncopated. Also singing and playing in time, even simple kid's tunes really helps with overall time keeping and locking in the groove, makes the time come from my body instead of the head so to speak...

[JakeAcci]

Additional thought - super simple exercise for keeping good time/rhythmic consciousness etc - try to solo only using 8th note upbeats. Easier to do at slower tempos, so the challenge is to see how quick you can get the tempo without everything falling apart. The tendency will be to want to put some of the notes on the downbeats...

[JensL]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

And by the way, what does "playing over the measure line" really mean??? Don't all competent jazz musicians play over the bar? Did Louis Armstrong, Bird, and other seminal jazzers not play over the bar line? Why should any one jazz musician get more credit for this than another? If jazz had no push, pull, and syncopation (all which can occur on any beat) it wouldn't be jazz at all, IMHO. If I am missing something, PLEASE let me know. I am really frustrated with "so and so can play over the bar line" statements!!!

I think that if you look at how Bill Evans plays one chord a beat more and the next 3 less, you'll find that it is a very present part of his style to move the harmonic rhythm around. You have example of Bird and others doing that, but not nearly as much(I think Bird mostly did resolving V later?). That is why it is a major part of Bil Evans style and not so much a defining character of bop in general.

I think cross-rhythms should be on the list too. F.ex how he used dotted quarter notes for long stretches in songs was quite new as far as I know. Maybe parallel to Coltrane/Tyner stuff? But quite an important part of his style.

Jens

[JonnyPac]

Nice. Thanks!

I'm back in the shed trying all of this. Phew... Come on muscle-memory! I want this stuff internalized and ON DEMAND.

[ronjazz]

Joao Gilberto.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by ronjazz

Joao Gilberto.

What about him? Great player, great syncopation and synchronization between voice and guitar.

[JonnyPac]

The only thing better than a one-word answer is a one-name answer. lol I think this was in reference to the "latin" jazz comping.

[Rustic]

I'm a little late to this thread but it's a great one. Thanks for the ideas about working on time feel, keep them coming!

In terms of Bill Evans, I love his masterful inside voice leading but don't like his sense of swing at all. I often feel his accents on the one and it makes me crazy: Da-da-Da-da-Da. Ick.

[djangoles]

I love this thread.....I wish this board would have a rhythm only section. No harmony allowed or it will be deleted.

[JakeAcci]

Hard to play jazz without a rhythm section! Hi-yo!

[pierre richard]

The Berklee Guitar Series has a rhythmic study book (William Leavett) and is of great help to those seeking more rhythmic variation...

Charles Colin (New York) also has a great book and rhythm as well aas a great book on Chords & Progressions..

Check these out..

Time on the instrument..pierre

[mattymel]

I take issue with all this quasi Bill Evans "bashing". Especially saying Eddie Gomez left because of Bills "rushing". First of all Gomez rushed like a freak on almost everything I've heard starting in '65 when he joined. So theres that. Secondly, he stayed with Bill for 11 years. So it must not have been THAT bad. Thirdly, Bill is one of (if not THE) the most rhythmically advanced players of his generation. Without bill probably no Herbie, Jarrett, Hersch, Mehldau, etc...

What people may be hearing...Bill wasn't really a bluesy guy. In fact he was afraid of the blues. But so what. Thirdly, there are a lot of players that play just as straight as Bill and don't get talked about. In fact they talk about how swinging they are. Bill did rush when he was coked up. Worst when he was getting coked with Philly Joe, but overall. There is a difference between rushing and playing on top...not rushing.

[ronjazz]

mattymel, I am in agreement. The whole band rushed from time to time, no doubt aided by stimulants. One thing that Evans had was boundless, endless creativity, very few pet licks, and very long phrases that came from being a master of the instrument.

[JonnyPac]

I agree too. Bill is still my hero.

I don't like the idea of discussing rhythm without harmony. I firmly believe that the elements of music are so interdependent that looking at rhythm would be a bit counterproductive. I've had many frustrating talks with drummers about the "accents" that harmony (chords and lines with strong guide-tones) can have on the time and meter though they were not hit harder, etc. Dynamics, accents, phrasing, choice-of-note, bass movement, all factor in.

A basic example: If you change chord on beat 4 instead of beat 1 (without necessarily playing it any louder) you will successfully "anticipate" the upcoming bar by one beat, and in so doing, be de-emphasizing one to a degree. Strong notes/chords are like "downbeats". What you are playing with is the "harmonic rhythm"; some drummers don't even know the term!

[mattymel]

i highly recommend joseph viola's "creative reading studies for sax". serious rhythmic workout.

[yamahaguitark]

Licktionaries, rhythms from other countries and technical lingo are all great, but the best way to develop various rhythmic patterns is to practice, or play live. As a guitarist I listen heavily to the drummer and the bass player; I tend to lock on to their groove and find a place in between them. It is not as easy as it sounds, but it is attainable. Jazz and foreign countries aren't the only resources if you are looking for something different. R&B music of the 60's thru 80's is a good resource (you don't have to look too far to find this). Paul Jackson Jr is one of the best rhythm guitar players to listen to. He also has some tutorials on rhythm on you tube. On great group of the 70's was Chic, who had heavy guitar rhythms; another group to listen to is Earth Wind and Fire. In order to get to a complex rhytnm, you must first develop a good grove and expand that grove. I find that great syncopated rhytm is nothing but soloing using chords.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

I don't like the idea of discussing rhythm without harmony. I firmly believe that the elements of music are so interdependent that looking at rhythm would be a bit counterproductive. I've had many frustrating talks with drummers about the "accents" that harmony (chords and lines with strong guide-tones) can have on the time and meter though they were not hit harder, etc. Dynamics, accents, phrasing, choice-of-note, bass movement, all factor in.

A basic example: If you change chord on beat 4 instead of beat 1 (without necessarily playing it any louder) you will successfully "anticipate" the upcoming bar by one beat, and in so doing, be de-emphasizing one to a degree. Strong notes/chords are like "downbeats". What you are playing with is the "harmonic rhythm"; some drummers don't even know the term!

Hmm I'm really not getting you here. We're all constantly isolating and discussing harmony (I don't need to look too far to find examples) independent of rhythm, so why would you object to putting some of the rhythmic elements under a microscope?

The way I've practiced certain rhythmic concepts is to first just be able to clap it or sing it, then to be able to improvise with it over a vamp, and then finally use it over changes or a standard. Of course this process varies greatly depending on what rhythmic idea we're talking about, but my point in this thread initially is that I think it is sometimes essential to isolate rhythmic concepts, and that student jazz musicians (and a lot of jazz pedagogy) tend to overlook rhythmic ideas. It should be obvious that the end result is then using the concepts in real music, with all musical elements present, just as the end result of learning new voicings should ideally be using them in time in an actual musical setting.

Maybe I'm idealistic, but I hear so many guitar players who phrase so weakly and seem to have such a weak grasp of the pulse and I think so much of these problems could be resolved by some time spent with some simple exercises. Some of them could involve just clapping, isolating the rhythms, but generally the goal is to quickly get the idea in play with a 'full' musical setting.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by yamahaguitark

Licktionaries, rhythms from other countries and technical lingo are all great, but the best way to develop various rhythmic patterns is to practice, or play live. As a guitarist I listen heavily to the drummer and the bass player; I tend to lock on to their groove and find a place in between them. It is not as easy as it sounds, but it is attainable. Jazz and foreign countries aren't the only resources if you are looking for something different. R&B music of the 60's thru 80's is a good resource (you don't have to look too far to find this). Paul Jackson Jr is one of the best rhythm guitar players to listen to. He also has some tutorials on rhythm on you tube. On great group of the 70's was Chic, who had heavy guitar rhythms; another group to listen to is Earth Wind and Fire. In order to get to a complex rhytnm, you must first develop a good grove and expand that grove. I find that great syncopated rhytm is nothing but soloing using chords.

I think there's a common misinterpretation that when somebody talks about "rhythm" that they're talking about "rhythm guitar playing." For clarity here I'll refer to that as "rhythmic comping." Being aware of time and rhythm while soloing (or even just playing the melody) is just as important, though there is obviously more freedom.

My rant honestly is more about solos than comping. When I listen to some of the giants play lines, like Herbie, Joe Henderson, Charlie Parker, Bill Evans, really just anybody, they all have distinct and killer time feels and sense of rhythm. Their lines contain undeniable rhythmic logic and, even if they are ahead or behind, impeccable rhythmic accuracy.

Anyway, I agree that some of the Funk and R&B comping stuff has some pretty cool and sometimes complex rhythms.

I also totally agree that one of the best ways to get better time is to play with a rhythm section that has great time and just try to lock in as hard as possible - while either soloing or comping. When I play with a drummer I look at his ride cymbal and try to get my lines to be singing right along with it.

[JoeShmoe]

Hey gents, reading over this thread and getting excited to practice what I can. I was wondering if there is a resource available on youtube or other visual/audio aid to follow to help me out. Just a video of some guy practicing along with a metronome with the topic at hand would be great. The Bill Evans youtube link was great but hard to follow for me.

[JonnyPac]

Jake, I agree that rhythm is overlooked in harmonic study. I just made a fre video lessons trying to bring more emphasis on that relationship, etc. The reason I dig Hal Galper, Bert Ligon, and Bill Evans so much is because of their fully integrated concepts of music. For now, yes, lets continue to rant about rhythm until a balance is met!!

[Richb]

I have found that trying to cop classic funk/r n b rhythm gtr parts has helped. My theory is if you can't deeply lock in w/ those type of genres, that you haven't a hope of locking in the more abstract/subtle world of jazz.
I remain amazed at how many mainstream jazz gtr players cant play a funk rhythm worth a damn. It's embarrassing - for them, and they don't even know it half the time.

[patskywriter]

Originally Posted by Richb

… I remain amazed at how many mainstream jazz gtr players cant play a funk rhythm worth a damn. It's embarrassing - for them, and they don't even know it half the time.

talk about embarrassing—check out "teenager" by oscar peterson, with joe pass on guitar. pass is so far out of his element as he tries to play faux funk that i cringe every time i listen to it. it's delightfully bad.

[yamahaguitark]

When soloing or playing the melody, I think it is necessary to learn rhythm and phrasing, as well as choosing the right notes (even in improvisational settings). I work on each autonomously to develop each skill as subsets, and then combine them in order to develop good solos and have a better sense of voicing melodies. When you practice clapping rhythmic patterns, you are independently developing a sense of rhythm without harmony. I totally agree that they are interdependent, but the above method helps me as I practice and perform. I tend to use old fashioned rubato as motivation when doing solos and melodies.

[jasonc]

Another exercise (from David Baker I think) is to pick a bebop tune and take the rhythm of the head and play different notes but keep the same rhythm. So if you picked something like Confirmation then you first just play the melodies rhythm with one note, then practice playing the arps. and scales, then eventually soloing all while keeping the melodic rhythm. It's very difficult for me at least.

[JakeAcci]

Jasonc, totally...