Jerry Bergonzi Melodic Structures applied to guitar

[masterguerrero]

Greetings from Portugal.

It was a pleasure discovering this forum about jazz guitar. I have a little question and hope some of you can share you experience in this topic.

So i'm a guitar player. Although i play rock and funk with several bands, I study mostly jazz and blues guitar at home. For many years i studied from "the complete jazz method" by Jody Fisher and all the Don Mock books, and in spite of being great books IMO it lacks the "target tone" and melody topics that i want to develop in my musical language. These books focus in many theory and technique and they've helped my in many ways of my playing but i was looking for something a little further.

So i discover Jerry Bergonzi collection. I started the first book about two months now and man, i'm really digging into it. I already notice many improvements in my playing, specially targeting tones and melody lines in chord changes - thats what the book is all about right?

As anyone studied this book? I have a question applied to guitar approach to this book.

For instance, how do you apply the 1,2,3,5 of a C major chord in the guitar arround 8th fret?
You apply just one fingering:



---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
--------7-10---------------------------------
--8-10---------------------------------------



Or you study and practice all the possible fingerings in this area of the fretboard?



----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------5---
--------7-10-----------------10------------5-7-----
--8-10---------------8-10-12------------8----------



Of course, this question is applied to all types of chords and all string groupings.

For now I've practiced every possible fingerings in all string groupings witch increases the level of difficulty and the number of possibilities of a given grouping of notes of any chord anywhere on the fretboard.
In this manner of thinking you have always 3 or 4 possible ways of making major (1235) or minor (1345) chords.

Another example E minor on 1st, 2nd and 3rd strings:



-----------------------------------------------------------------7--
--------10-12---------------12---------8-10-12------------8-10----
--9-12-------------9-12-14-----------9------------------9---------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------



Do you get my question?

Although Jerry is not a guitar player and the book was written for all instruments i think that this method is a bit different for guitar.
I mean a Sax player or a piano player dont have different "E notes" on any given octave in their instrument right? We guitar players have the same note in the same octave repeated in many places of the neck, thats the reason that there are many possible ways of playing any given line.
For instance the E note on the 12th fret 6th string is the same note, same octave and same pith that the E note on the 7th fret 5th string and the E note on the 2nd fret 4th string.

Have any of you encounter this "issue"? How do you practice this?
Do you follow my idea practicing all combinations of fingerings, or you choose just one and repeat it anywhere?

Hope that anyone can share his or her experience.
Thanks in advance

[jmstritt]

1st off: Welcome to the forum! This is a graet place and there are a ton of great players here that all like to help each other better the craft of jazz guitar.

I am not familiar with this particular book, but I have used Jerry Coker's Patterns for Jazz for quite some time and I think that the issue you bring up here is one that I experienced my self some years ago. What I decided was when you take a pattern like a 1 2 3 5 for instance and you want to incorporate it into your improvisations to build your vocabulary, you need to learn it in as many positions as possible.

The good thing about this is it really helps you learn the fretboard and get away from playing, "Shapes." one of the things that I like to do when working with digital patterns is to superimpose them over Coltrane changes. When you do that, the chords are changing frequently enough that you don't have the luxury of thinking in shapes, you have to hear it and respond. It really gets your ears and your hands synched up together. Try taking a tune like Giant Steps or Countdown and using different patterns over the whole tune just as a practice room exercise. Start with the 1 2 3 5 then try the same thing descending 5 3 2 1, then you can get into some of the ones that can be really tricky on guitar like the 1 2 5 3 or the 1 3 2 5. Start slow!

The benefit of working on things like this is that by the time you have really put some work in, you will have a whole world of sounds under your fingers and you wont have to think as much when you play. Then you can take those Coltrane ideas and superimpose them over standards like Coltrane did with Body and Soul and The Night Has a Thousand Eyes.

Sorry for the lenghty response, but I hope that helps! :-)

[bako]

There are 2 different issues at play here.

One is learning the musical meaning of what he is presenting.
To this end I would say that one fingering in each octave is enough.

The other issue is learning the fingerboard well. The act of playing passages or songs in every location using every possible fingering
is an important method to progress in this area. However it is not necessary to treat everything that you play and study in this manner,
just enough for it to be understood.

[guitarplayer007]

Check Hal Galper Forward Motion

[masterguerrero]

Thank you very much for the fast replies jmstritt, bako and guitarplayer007.
It help me indeed.

Bako, my primary issue with practicing one or all the fingerings available in the fretboard, is the fact when you are playing through changes and you have only one fingering in your mind, you make big "jumps"/movements with your hand to take you to the next fingering/chord. With all the combinations, you have various "inversions" or versions of that group of notes and the changes are much more smoother. You can go from Cmaj7 to Abmin or another key that is several degrees apart without making big shifts.

When i started the book, i had this problem. In the beginning i could surf through changes very easy (i study target tones for a while now), but because i used just one fingering the passages were not very smooth, with differences of pitch and tone of the notes.

I think i will study as much combinations as i can. It's not very difficult if you know the fretboard and all of these groupings are most of the times just triads with one extra note (2nds, 4ths, 6ths).

[FatJeff]

Check Hal Galper Forward Motion

He's got guitar fingerings in there? I must have a defective copy.

[FatJeff]

when you take a pattern like a 1 2 3 5 for instance and you want to incorporate it into your improvisations to build your vocabulary, you need to learn it in as many positions as possible.

This is very good advice. I might also point out that a consideration in your fingering might be to play the lines as smoothly and with as much swing as possible. To this end, I've restricted my favored fingerings to either



---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
-----------10--------------------------------
--8-10-12-----------------------------------



or




---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
--------3------------------------------------
----5-7--------------------------------------
--8------------------------------------------



This way, you can impart a nice swing inflection by employing hammer-ons.

[jmstritt]

This is very good advice. I might also point out that a consideration in your fingering might be to play the lines as smoothly and with as much swing as possible. To this end, I've restricted my favored fingerings to either



---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
-----------10--------------------------------
--8-10-12-----------------------------------



or




---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
--------3------------------------------------
----5-7--------------------------------------
--8------------------------------------------



This way, you can impart a nice swing inflection by employing hammer-ons.

+1

I can dig that ;-)

[bako]

masterguerrero,

I agree with you that it is important to know the different fingerings and locations to smoothly navigate through tunes using Jerry Bergonzi's concepts.

For me, I tackled fingerboard issues as it's own area of study. I used two basic overlapping perspectives to organize fingerings (5 fret positions and string group awareness).
When approaching material like Bergonzi's book I hoped that the fingering knowledge gained elsewhere would spill over and if it didn't, it would inform me as to where my weak links were.

Applying my study methodology to 1235 starting on as many notes as possible within the 1st to 5th fret.

FGAC// F#G#A#C#// GABD// AbBbCEb// ABC#E// BbCDF// BC#D#F#// CDEG// DbEbFAb// DEF#A// EbFGBb// EF#G#B//
FGAC// F#G#A#C#// GABD// AbBbCEb// ABC#E// BbCDF// BC#D#F#// CDEG// DbEbFAb// DEF#A//

The C note on the G string and B string is the one note in this position that occurs in two places and offers an alternate fingering choice when that C is part of the line.

The fingerings included here occur on the following string groups 3+1 // 2+2 // 1+2+1 //one instance possible of 2+1+1 (BbCDF starting 2nd finger on G string)

2 other possibilities that move beyond 5 frets:
all 4 notes on one string// 1+3 //

Anyway, this is how I went about it.

[marcwhy]

Bom dia,
All of Bergonzi's books are excellent -- I actually prefer Vol 6 overall.

As others have indicated, if you know the fretboard well, you can play all the examples anywhere on the neck, in different octaves, with different fingers, etc. Enjoy!

[masterguerrero]

masterguerrero,

Applying my study methodology to 1235 starting on as many notes as possible within the 1st to 5th fret.

FGAC// F#G#A#C#// GABD// AbBbCEb// ABC#E// BbCDF// BC#D#F#// CDEG// DbEbFAb// DEF#A// EbFGBb// EF#G#B//
FGAC// F#G#A#C#// GABD// AbBbCEb// ABC#E// BbCDF// BC#D#F#// CDEG// DbEbFAb// DEF#A//

The C note on the G string and B string is the one note in this position that occurs in two places and offers an alternate fingering choice when that C is part of the line.

The fingerings included here occur on the following string groups 3+1 // 2+2 // 1+2+1 //one instance possible of 2+1+1 (BbCDF starting 2nd finger on G string)

2 other possibilities that move beyond 5 frets:
all 4 notes on one string// 1+3 //

Anyway, this is how I went about it.

Thank you all for your replies.

Bako,

I didn't understand exactly what you mean.
You start 1235 groupings on the 1st 5 frets in the 6th string?
Can you place an example on how do you start the sequence?

[bako]

Numbers are the fret numbers
/ indicates a string change

E and A strings
FGAC---------135/3
F#G#A#C#--24/14
GABD---------35/25

E,A and D strings
AbBbCEb------4/13/1
ABC#E--------5/24/2

Continue up till the highest note in the sequence is A, 5th fret of the high E string.

A sequence that has the C note on the B string 1st fret or G string 5th fret will have an alternate fingering in this position.

Let me know if this is still unclear.

[masterguerrero]

Perfectly clear. I understand it.
Its exactly what i thought. That was my initial question (practicing all combinations)

So you are making all the possible combinations on any given set of strings and frets.

You practice this way? I mean with that sequence? Or that is just for warm up purposes and position awareness?

I've been practicing with:
- several tunes in Jerry Bergonzi books that have tons of chord changes (pretty challenging)
- Cycles of major chords (1,2,3,5)
- Cycles of minor chords (1,b3,4,5)
- Cycles of dominant chords (1,2,3,5)
- Cycles of minor7b5 chords (1,b3,4,b5)
- Cycles of dominant b9 chords (1,b2,3,5)
- And other random tunes

Of course, practicing at least 4 permutations on each combination in 5 different locations on the neck and in different octaves.

Instead of using "your 5 fret position", I take the CAGED system positions as a reference because i studied this system exhaustedly in the past.
Although the CAGED system "contradicts" this method in terms of freedom in the fretboard, i learned a lot on chord, arpeggios, scale shapes and targeting tones.

I think its a matter of putting all together.

Next in the book is another two combinations
- 5,6,7,9 (major and dominant) and 5,7,8,9 (minor)
- 9,10,#11,13 (major and dominant) and 9,11,12,13 (minor)

Then all permutations, all inversions, combinations....again

Practicing 6h-8h per day my mind is gonna go up in smoke...

[bako]

What I was suggesting was to practice fingerboard issues separately within whatever time limitations that you assign it.

I have the book and with all the permutations he indicates, there is already a massive quantity of material.
He suggests that it is not necessary to play all of the variations. Adding different fingerings multiplies it to somewhere close to infinity, as you noticed.

The 5 fret approach is more complete than CAGED for learning the fingerboard. Fingerings for certain keys in a given position are awkward, but it is useful to know where the notes are and useful for navigating fast changing harmonies because there is no shifting involved. It would be silly to use an awkward fingering if you were playing exclusively in that key. I am not a practitioner but I believe all CAGED scale fingerings are comfortable, using minimal extensions, contractions and shifts. That has it's own value as well.

[whatswisdom]

Fingerings for certain keys in a given position are awkward, but it is useful to know where the notes are and useful for navigating fast changing harmonies because there is no shifting involved.

That's the skill that has totally raised my game. It enables you to play in all keys from any one position.

[masterguerrero]

Thank you very much for your replies.
They really clear my doubts. Sometimes it's hard to see the hole picture alone.

I'm glad that i discover a new place where i can share my experience with others learning something new every day.

[pauln]

Just so you know, there are alternate fingerings on the sax. In the highest range many of the individual notes have a dozen different fingerings to play them; up to two dozen different ways for some in the highest range...

To me, the whole idea of fingerings on the guitar should be naturally based on the sound of what is played. I've never learned anything by fingerings, always and only by sound. When you learn it by the way it sounds then you can use any natural fingering to play those sounds without thinking about fingering.

The advantage is that when you hear something you want to learn to play, you directly know how to play it without choosing a fingering; and the fingering just follows the sound naturally like when improvising on stage...

[djangoles]

I've been working out of this book for about a month and a half and I can see some major improvements in playing stronger melodies. The fingering options are not a major concern....I just try to work through it hearing the melody/shape first and then apply it to where i'm at fretboard.

[Jzzr]

Masterguerrero,

Thx for a great thread. Which volume are you using?

Thx for any info!

[masterguerrero]

Thx for all the comments.

Jzzr, i have volumes 1 through 6 and i think they are all very good.

Im using volume 1. I think it is the most important one. It forces you to see your instrument in a different way, and it is a great starting point for what it comes next. I have read through all the other volumes and they have a lot of work to do. Many of the things in the other volumes you probably already know, such as pentatonic fingerins, targeting chord tones (3rds, 5ths, 7ths...), rhythmic phrasing,etc...Of course jerry always adds another perspective of viewing things, and its a lot more going on in this topics.

With so many things to play (scales, arps, triads, chords, theory, standards, reading studies, ear training...) you have to try to sneak in this approach in you practice routine.

I think this is the most dificult thing about playing an instrument in this level of complexity - your practice routine. For us, self-taught musicians, the hardest part is maintain auto-control and auto-discipline in your own playing.

There is no complete method out there. You have follow different methods, pieces of information to achieve a real jazz language.

Just a reminder:

When i started playing the guitar (classical) back in 1997 aprox., we do not had access to today's information. I mean i didn't have Internet, dvd lessons, youtube stuff and what else....We have to find out for ourselves most of the things by ear. From time to time, miraculously we had access to a book of theory or technique that a friend of a friend had bought in some place.

Today we are overwhelmed by information, most of the times wrong one, youtube shit and lessons in every site saying that you will be shredding in 2 weeks like rusty cooley...lol

I'm not saying that all the you tube stuff is bad, and that the lesson site are bad, but i understand that is hard for a young student to find his way in this world.

Music is so much more than that....

[Jzzr]

Great feedback, thx!