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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Again for me it seemed obvious..
    All that seems obvious to me is that it's 'jazz' (and not maths).
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  2. #92
    All that seems obvious to me is that it's 'jazz' (and not maths).
    Who says 'maths'?

    And with all respect... if we say 'it's jazz' for every problem...
    we can stop any conversation here in any thread... but forum is conversation...

    All I said was about what I heard... I just expressed it in conventional terms that I am used too... but the experience is purely hearing...
    that's it.

    I read through this thread now and I found Reg also mentioned 6/8 feel... I do not know if he meant the same thing I do... and as you know I am not looking for authroty to support... but from my long-time mebership here I know that Reg as direct as one could be in expressing his own practical experience... without any pretensions or whatever.

    Again let me stress I did not analyze the stuff on purpose - it was just kind of first thing I heard - 4/4 and sort of 3/8 or 6/8 feel in it.... and now I saw the thread I tried to sum it up in more conventional way.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Who says 'maths'?

    And with all respect... if we say 'it's jazz' for every problem...
    we can stop any conversation here in any thread... but forum is conversation...

    All I said was about what I heard... I just expressed it in conventional terms that I am used too... but the experience is purely hearing...
    that's it.

    I read through this thread now and I found Reg also mentioned 6/8 feel... I do not know if he meant the same thing I do... and as you know I am not looking for authroty to support... but from my long-time mebership here I know that Reg as direct as one could be in expressing his own practical experience... without any pretensions or whatever.

    Again let me stress I did not analyze the stuff on purpose - it was just kind of first thing I heard - 4/4 and sort of 3/8 or 6/8 feel in it.... and now I saw the thread I tried to sum it up in more conventional way.
    I said 'maths' - though it's probably arithmetic. You said 'obvious' - qualified with 'for me' - and I followed suit, in my non-mathematical way.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    There is actually...

    It's probably how you hear it first time.... I never questioned this title because I immidiatly felt this 3s (or 6s) in melody and it seemed obvious for me...

    But of course I cannot say for sure that Wes meant it (especially after I found so many people would disagree with that).

    There's a pic up note - but it's coming in only at the last beat of the first bar... pure melody is

    ddb/cc-/ and if you play it straight without swinging it shows 6/8 behind it that fits first three 4ths of the bar... and the last 4th is for the pickup note.

    Again for me it seemed obvious...

    It goes like

    4 /4 /4 /4
    888/888/88

    dd-/bcc/-b/

    By the way ... now I think that comping groove also follow this 3+3+2 rythmic pattern...
    Yes I agree you could take the melody by itself and express it in 6/8 time. Maybe that is what Wes meant.

  5. #95
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    Perhaps it's a cryptic reference to the eponymous compound formed by 't-i-m-e' and 's-u-m-m-e-r', whose letters number four and six respectively. Then again... probably not.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Yes I agree you could take the melody by itself and express it in 6/8 time. Maybe that is what Wes meant.
    It's cliché, but 'just because one could'....because such mathematical thinking fosters too narrow a conception of rhythm to be of any practical use (i.e., in improvising 'jazz') on this tune.

    Edit: As Jonah says, "It's obvious" - but in the broadest sense. Because... it's 'jazz'.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    It's cliché, but 'just because one could'....because such mathematical thinking fosters too narrow a conception of rhythm to be of any practical use (i.e., in improvising 'jazz') on this tune.

    Edit: As Jonah says, "It's obvious" - but in the broadest sense. Because... it's 'jazz'.
    I actually like Jonah's explanation, it's the only one that makes sense of what Ronnie Scott says in that video. I can imagine Ronnie might have asked Wes for the explanation beforehand.

    I can also imagine Wes demonstrating the tune for the first time to his trio back in Indianapolis, he might have said 'bass line goes like this' and they say 'ok that's in 4', then he says 'melody goes like this' and they say 'hmm sounds like that bit's in 6', then Wes says 'no you play them together', so Mel Rhyne or somebody says 'sounds like 4 and 6' and Wes says 'hey cool title, I didn't have a name for it yet!'.

    Pure speculation of course!

  8. #98
    Perhaps it's a cryptic reference to the eponymous compound formed by 't-i-m-e' and 's-u-m-m-e-r', whose letters number four and six respectively.

    I also thought about just 4 notes in the intro and then 6 notes in the chorus melody... It could be this too (or not)))

    It's cliché, but 'just because one could'....because such mathematical thinking fosters too narrow a conception of rhythm to be of any practical use (i.e., in improvising 'jazz') on this tune.
    It's mathematical thinking just if you imply backwards without natural feel of it (sometimes it is practical by the way... on the teaching method: practice the pattern strictly by the rules and then you begin to feel and incorporate natural musical feeling behind it),

    Anyway in this case I was coming from first hearing impression (some kind of fast jazz waktz bounce) and maths came up only as a way to express it conventionally...

    It's not that I seprated the melody and began to try to put it into 6/8.


    Edit: As Jonah says, "It's obvious" - but in the broadest sense. Because... it's 'jazz'.
    Broadest would be because 'it's music' ... obvious... for me)

  9. #99
    I can also imagine Wes demonstrating the tune for the first time to his trio back in Indianapolis, he might have said 'bass line goes like this' and they say 'ok that's in 4', then he says 'melody goes like this' and they say 'hmm sounds like that bit's in 6', then Wes says 'no you play them together', so Mel Rhyne or somebody says 'sounds like 4 and 6' and Wes says 'hey cool title, I didn't have a name for it yet!'.
    Ha... I just wanted to say the same speculation... that the name could come up from explanation in rehearsing process

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I also thought about just 4 notes in the intro and then 6 notes in the chorus melody... It could be this too (or not)))



    It's mathematical thinking just if you imply backwards without natural feel of it (sometimes it is practical by the way... on the teaching method: practice the pattern strictly by the rules and then you begin to feel and incorporate natural musical feeling behind it),

    Anyway in this case I was coming from first hearing impression (some kind of fast jazz waktz bounce) and maths came up only as a way to express it conventionally...

    It's not that I seprated the melody and began to try to put it into 6/8.




    Broadest would be because 'it's music' ... obvious... for me)
    I hear you , and I respect what you say for its empirical value, but I think 'it's music' is actually too broad.

    Because the context is 'jazz' - specifically (and perhaps 'obviously', a Wes tune over Summertime) - and what can be inferred from study of it implies what's possible in the playing of melody within that particular style of music.
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I actually like Jonah's explanation, it's the only one that makes sense of what Ronnie Scott says in that video. I can imagine Ronnie might have asked Wes for the explanation beforehand.

    I can also imagine Wes demonstrating the tune for the first time to his trio back in Indianapolis, he might have said 'bass line goes like this' and they say 'ok that's in 4', then he says 'melody goes like this' and they say 'hmm sounds like that bit's in 6', then Wes says 'no you play them together', so Mel Rhyne or somebody says 'sounds like 4 and 6' and Wes says 'hey cool title, I didn't have a name for it yet!'.

    Pure speculation of course!
    Sounds plausible. Chin-chin:
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian View Post
    This thread is comedy gold.
    in our weird corner of the world..

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by basinstreet View Post
    in our weird corner of the world..
    Shakespeare's Caliban to Prospero - had they been talking 'jazz':
    "You taught me numbers, and my profit on't is... I know how to count".
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  14. #104
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    I speculate that some will read and think, "Oh, dear! I'm missing something - I'd better get that book/take that course/buy those bongos etc..."
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  15. #105
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    Re. 'the thumb'... in and of themselves, hands are quite benign:
    "Each heart vibrates to that iron string."
    Ralph Waldo Emerson
    (who obviously played in Carl Kress tuning)

  16. #106
    this is getting ridiculous..WEs was in London in the 60s ..he loved fish n chips..he just couldnt handle the money..shillings and pence 4/6 pence..Haddock or Cod...gimme a break

  17. #107
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    What's the meaning of the title of 'Four On Six'?

    What's the meaning of the title of 'Four On Six'?

  18. #108
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    When WM recorded this it was a simpler, yet politically incorrect era. TV was emerging and I thought the title inferred one of America’s favorite TV past times:

    Tag team midget wrestling.
    If it really is not about the money, I am doing okay.

  19. #109
    4 against 6 isn't 6/8. It's quarter note triplets. 6 notes against 4 beats. Pairs of swing eighths on 1 and 3 actually implies this pretty strongly.

    Aside from duration, a pair of swing 8ths is identical to a pair of quarter note triplets, meaning that if you play them on a snare drum instead of a guitar, they sound the same.

    Not saying this is the actual explanation. I don't really care. Just saying...

  20. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    6 notes against 4 beats,
    Which is 6 on 4, of course.

    'On' presumably means that 4 is the main underlying beat and the 6 is 'on top' of it.

    But Wes' tune is called 4 on 6. That's the problem!

    It's fingers on strings. Got to be, otherwise anyone who knows music would understand it. Instead it's become like some nutty conspiracy theory with everyone fishing in the wind. Even Ronnie Scott apparently.

  21. #111
    I thought it was common knowledge that the piece was originally called "Forensics" (Wes was a big crime fiction fan) but Orrin Keepnews, producer on The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery session misheard the title mumbled by the guitarist immediately before the take.

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