What's the meaning of the title of 'Four On Six'?

**MarkRhodes** · 09-25-2011, 01:42 PM

I've often wondered what "Four On Six" referred to. The idea that it refers to a bass riff played on guitar may be right, but I think that's dull. (This doesn't mean false. Lots of dull things are true.) I got to thinking about another signature jazz guitarist's tune that opens with a bass line: Charlie Christian's "Seven Come Eleven." Now, the phrase "seven come eleven" comes from the dice game "craps." Maybe Wes thought this was his answer to "Seven Come Eleven" and he chose two even numbers to contrast two odd numbers.

I did not read this on the Internet and no one ever told me. It may have nothing to do with why the Wes's tune is called "Four On Six." But unless someone *knows* anything, I prefer this guess to the one about four strings on a bass and six on a guitar.

**Tom Karol** · 09-25-2011, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I don't know if this comment was at all directed at me, Tom, but there was no scouring going on. I simply went to youtube and picked more or less the first video of the first jazz guitarists that came to mind. It took about 2 minutes. I thought the comment that great jazz guitarists don't use their pinky to be so silly and misleading that simple proof was needed to end the discussion.

No Jake - not directed at anyone - just my lame attempt to lighten up this thread!

And Little Jay, "The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery," would definitely be on my 'Desert Island' short list!

**brwnhornet59** · 09-25-2011, 03:19 PM

I heard that it was 4 a.m. when he did the tune and had to be at work by 6.

Or is it 25 or 624?? I get so mixed up. Peed Skills.

**paynow** · 09-25-2011, 04:06 PM

I never thought about that title and now I'm still not sure what it means.

The one that I was unable to figure out was OGD, which is also known as "Road Song". I've been told it stands for "Organ, Guitar, Drums", which is what the engineer wrote in his log when Wes didn't have a title for it.

**bluewaterpig** · 09-25-2011, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by fep

4 fingers on 6 strings is not something I made up. My guitar teacher told me that. And he's been playing professionally for 40 years and is quite the historian. Whether it's true or not, I think it's more likely true than not as he has always been very reliable. Next time I see him I'll ask him where he got that info.

How do you know that, as you said, "but that's not it"?

Please provide your source.

Here's my source, at 0:48.

Ronnie Scott explains it, with Wes himself sitting right behind him. Good enough?

I'm sure your jazz guitar teacher is a great player, but he's wrong.

This is proof enough for everybody else who claims to know what it meant, and for all their guitar teachers telling them what it means too. I'm pretty sure Wes wouldn't have let him said that if it wasn't true.

**AlsoRan** · 09-25-2011, 05:08 PM

Very interesting.

Funny how song titles and lyrics can spark such fierce debate. Sometimes I wonder if the joke is just on us.

**bluewaterpig** · 09-25-2011, 06:29 PM

Listen, it's very easy to get irritated after reading a post in a forum like this, especially when you can't hear a person's tone and you read with angry eyes. I know that I've done that before.

Simple fact is I was wondering if anybody could identify the 6/8 rhythm that 'Four On Six' is named after. I too had never known where the title came from, so when I saw this interview and saw that this was the real source, I thought it was worth sharing. There are a bunch of different explanations for the title, some of which were posted by people in here, so it seemed like it was worth addressing. Just because some of us look up to our teachers because they're killer musicians, it doesn't mean everything they say is true.

So getting back to my original question, I'm wondering if anybody can actually identify where this supposed 6/8 rhythm is within the melody, because it seems pretty straight ahead in common time to me.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-25-2011, 06:45 PM

Seriously, I wonder if it's possible Ronnie had his info wrong, and Wes didn't see a broadcast as the right place to say otherwise...

Because I'm not hearing any "six."

**fep** · 09-25-2011, 08:03 PM

I don't hear any six either. I just sang quarter note triplets through the whole recording listen to see if any of the instruments would line up with the quarter note triplets.

Not even for a brief moment did any of the players play in 6 as far as I can hear.

**AlsoRan** · 09-25-2011, 08:42 PM

Ha! Ha!

I wonder who wrote the introduction for the gentleman in the video! It appears someone did not do their homework. That begs the question just how reliable are some of the intros in YouTube Videos.

I always took them as Gospel, like liner notes in an album.
"To err," as the saying goes, truly is human.

**fep** · 09-25-2011, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

Ha! Ha!

I wonder who wrote the introduction for the gentleman in the video! It appears someone did not do their homework. That begs the question just how reliable are some of the intros in YouTube Videos.

I always took them as Gospel, like liner notes in an album.
"To err," as the saying goes, truly is human.

Ha Ha is right.

Imagine if that was a joke the band played on the music critic.

If it is, that's a pretty clever and funny joke.

Perhaps a reaction to the band being of the opinion that most music critics have no idea what they're talking about. (not saying that's the case, but if it is it's certainly funny).

**Kojo27** · 09-25-2011, 11:00 PM

Yep, Fep. (I couldn't resist that.)

If there's any truth in the 6/8 over 4/4 thing, Wes must have rearranged the tune drastically since naming it.

"Flatpicking" legend Tony Rice recorded a super-hot version of _Four on Six_ -- I have the vinyl LP it's on. Rice talks about the four fingers on six strings meaning, which he learned from John Carlini -- a Berklee grad and fairly-famous LA jazz player and high-dollar teacher. He was musical director the Ice Capades -- and he's a very learned musicologist and jazz historian.

That's all I know. And it was my guess before buying the Rice album. Could still be wrong.

kj

**JonnyPac** · 09-26-2011, 02:39 AM

Crazy funny thread. Defiantly a jazz guitar classic! lol

I don't know the meaning... and I still don't know. It really mustn't be a metric thing though. There is hardly a tuplet in the tune.

Interesting debate over the pinky- I was a Charlie Christian imitator at first and ignored my pinky for single-note runs. When I got into Wes, I found his LH made sense to me. Only after watching Mike Moreno did I decide that the pinky is one hell of a tool. I've spent a lot of time getting it up to speed since. Many intervallic doors opened as well as pure speed. Use all four on six!

**Reg** · 09-26-2011, 09:45 AM

I don't know or really care ... but it's fairly common to play the tune in poly meter style. The bass line is dotted quarters on a 6/8 rhythm or four on six, and the comp is 6/8 feel. The melody could have started out in 6/8, it sure accents like it could have started out in 6/8. The funny thing is that we as jazz players go in and out of that style of metric modulation naturally all the time anyway. It's not like we're using hip technique or something unique... it's a basic jazz style of development and improve . As far as the interview... It may not be BS... but it would be interesting to check out the audience. Over the years I've played way too many..."Jazz concerts" for non jazz audiences. Somewhat like let's check out the wild animals in the zoo... we don't really want to get that close.
Most names of tune for many jazz players are simply by chance. I'm always on the Listen for a great title. The four on six sounds pretty cool, just gets better with more levels of understanding... Reg

**Kman** · 09-26-2011, 09:54 AM

It is true, Wes only used his pinky for octaves and chords.

Ted Greene theorized that it was because Wes' hands were so big. Wes could cover four frets with three fingers easily.

**JakeAcci** · 09-26-2011, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Kman

It is true, Wes only used his pinky for octaves and chords.

Ted Greene theorized that it was because Wes' hands were so big. Wes could cover four frets with three fingers easily.

Yes, it is true Wes and some others didn't use their pinky for single note runs too often. But it's not true of the majority of giants we usually talk about, and especially not true of most modern players.

I think a lot of guitarists without that much training play without the pinky - it takes some work to get the hang of it. I often have to give my beginner students isolated pinky exercises even just to get them more comfortable chording with the pinky.

**Tom Karol** · 09-26-2011, 01:08 PM

I'm sure there are many fine guitarists who don't use their pinky, but I believe that they're fine players in spite of it not because of it. As for me, I'll take all the help (and fingers) I can get!

**whatswisdom** · 09-26-2011, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

As for me, I'll take all the help (and fingers) I can get!

Me too. Here's 2 great exercises to get your 4th finger working in your favor:

1. Lead with the fourth finger. (Doesn't matter whether you're going for a chord-grip or starting a single-note line.)

2. 4-frets: practise hammering with the fourth finger only. (One > Four; Two > Four; Three > Four, etc.)

See and feel the difference. Takes a while but it really works.

**Flyin' Brian** · 09-26-2011, 01:55 PM

Good thoughts there. Also if you drop the jazz for a bit and try to play some Chet Atkins stuff, you'll find that you'll never run out of uses for your pinky.

Then there's the old thumb question. I liked what Howard Roberts said many years ago that if he had to use his nose it was ok as long as the idea got played.

But that's another argument...er.....thread.

**JakeAcci** · 09-26-2011, 08:09 PM

I often use my thumb to hitchhike, or occasionally raise it as a gesture of approval (when appropriate.)

**Spirit59** · 09-26-2011, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

Here's my source, at 0:48.

Ronnie Scott explains it, with Wes himself sitting right behind him. Good enough?

I'm sure your jazz guitar teacher is a great player, but he's wrong.

This is proof enough for everybody else who claims to know what it meant, and for all their guitar teachers telling them what it means too. I'm pretty sure Wes wouldn't have let him said that if it wasn't true.

Notice how they cut it off before you could hear Wes call him a "jive-ass mother%&#&!!"