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Looking for some improvisational ideas for Take-Five, and also having a difficult time with the time signature. When I am playing with my group, we usually just solo over the Ebm7-Bbm7 section, so I just play the parent scale of Ebm7, the F#maj7 scale or the parent scale of Ebm-7 the C#maj7 scale. More than anything I think the time signature is where I am stumbling. I've been using a metronome quite a bit, but it doesn't seem to help. Any advice would be much appreciated.
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01-29-2011 02:30 PM
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Can you play along with the original (Brubeck/Morello...) recording? Or put it into BIAB, if you have that? The more you play them, the more 'instinctive' these time signatures become. Is your metronome capable of accentuating the 5/4 nature (a 'tic/toc' won't do that...)? A 'looper' pedal would help, too.
Originally Posted by dzzy121
Hope this helps (a little...)
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The presence of the Bbm means that you should be thinking Eb Dorian (Db Major.) The other works, but is not typical - for modal things like this Dorian tends to be preferred unless it clearly can't be.
The trouble is the meter. You need to spend some time in 5/4 and internalize it. Until you can feel it, you will keep getting lost. I tend to think of it as a 3/4 bar and a 2/4 bar stuck together (which is supported by how they treat it) so I tap my foot on beat one and beat 4. This is asymmetrical, but it is an asymmetrical meter. If you need to, you can also tap in beat 5.
Play the comping pattern while you tap your foot. Spend an hour doing this and internalize the rhythm. Record the comp. Try soloing over it while tapping your foot, but with simple ideas. If you are getting lost, then the idea is too complex. If you do this long enough, it will eventually become second nature. But if you just keep painting long scales over the top and not focusing on the meter. you will keep getting lost.
Just my $.02.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 01-29-2011 at 03:17 PM.
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Make up some rhythmic figures that fit the 5/4 measure at the tempo and feel that you're going for. Write them down if you want to. Make up licks by putting different notes onto the rhythmic figures.
It may sound repetitive at first. But you'll get the feel of the 5/4 and go from there.
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On the rhythm thing, do you count alternating 3's and 2's or a straight 5? Originally Posted by dzzy121
On the scales it seems strange to think of the relative major of Eb as F# not Gb. Static bass? My first instincts are call and response, and changing modes.
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On the time aspect, the easiest way is to count 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5, etc. Emphasise the 1 and the 4. As Kevin said, it's basically one bar 3/4 one bar 2/4. Difficult to learn at first if you're only used to thinking in 4/4
It's a good way of getting comfortable with any asymmetrical rhythm. 7/8 divides easily into one 4/4 and one 3/4 so you accent the 1 and the 5, i.e. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, or 1 2 3 4 5 6 7.
These aren't the only ways of counting the odd time signatures, it all depends on the tune, but it's a good base.
Practise this way of emphasising the critical beats and you'll find you naturally lock into it without thinking.
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In relation to the beat I recently read an interview with Chad Wackerman who said he breaks everything into 2's and 3's.
Interestingly on the Robby Ameen (a drummer) album "Days in the Life" there is a track called "2s & 3's" so this may be standard drummer thinking. The difference the guitarists faces is "where do the chords change?"
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It's just an ABA form, 8 bars each with a 4 bar intro. The chords change on beats 1 & 5 according to the sheet music but most play it changing on the 1 and 4 (as in the Benson vid). Originally Posted by Banksia
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Here's an easy way to internalize the meter: Dizzy Gillespie said that 5/4 gave him a fit, so he would think of the phrase "Who parked the car, I did" with emphasis in the "I" as he played - it really works! Just sing it with the same rhythm as the Take Five vamp.
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I do something similar- I go "One, two and three, Four, five", to the rhythm of the Take Five bass line. Originally Posted by jazzbender
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Hey M-ster... thanks, for the transcription, that was fun to read through...Reg
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You're welcome. Lots of interesting stuff in there.
This was the first one I did using Sibelius, and I see I left out a lot of information (bends, slides, etc.), just 'cause I wasn't familiar with the program. Probably could stand to update the file.
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Wow that's awesome! Originally Posted by jazzbender
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when I learned it it was..
123 12 123 12 123 12...etc...
time on the instrument...pierre
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I wanted to add a great thing to work on (that I need to do a lot more) is simply feeling the half note in five:
|: ONE two THREE four FIVE one TWO three FOUR five :|
you simply set a metronome for a half note and it loops around every two measures. This is good as it can get you out of the 1 2 3 1 2 and start crossing the bar line and playing some stuff that can sound pretty funky. But, obviously, the basic groove has to be internalized first.
This works also works well in 3, 6, and 7
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Not trying to make odd and multi-meter playing sound easy... but eventually is as easy as playing in 4/4 or 3/4 etc... you just have to play enough for different meters to become feel rather than counting... I still do this at gigs, have been doing for 40 years. When band can get away with, we play standards in different time signatures. Basically the standards, 3/4, 4/4,5/4(6/6), 7/8... we'll use longer patterns, but usually those are combination of the basics. The difficulty is always the head... but even that becomes simple after a while.
I posted this 5/4 version on thread we have going on with standards. It's not written out or rehearsed, it's what is called a head arrangement, you verbally make an arrangement in your head.... sorry about the flash... I get bored sometimes and try and have fun. Anyway my point is... play rhythms with more feeling than counting and it becomes pretty simple.
Best Reg
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Thanks everyone, some great stuff here and I'm already feeling more comfortable with the tune. Love how Dizzy used the phrase to help him with the counting..it really works! I think Benson had too much coffee before the show! Been on this site about a week and learned so much already, loving this site and very addicted! Hope over time I will be able to offer some good insight as you all have. Thank you again!
Last edited by dzzy121; 01-30-2011 at 03:12 PM.
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That's great! I use a lot of syllabic stuff like that when teaching syncopated strums to (non-jazz) beginners. While I write out the rhythms in notation, they're more of a reading problem than a playing problem, and the phrases get them up and running way before they're at that reading level. Originally Posted by jazzbender
A band director I knew once told me that he got a beautiful sound out of his young high school oboist playing a quintuplet (if that's what it's called). When people commented on how well this young player executed it, he smiled and resisted the urge to tell them that she was really playing "hip-po-pa-ta-mus".
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If I can add, a group of rockers I used to jam with wanted to learn Take Five. They didn't read so I had to show them the chords and bass lines and explain the 5/4 meter, especially for the drummer. They were having trouble until I told them about Dizzy's secret. We started singing the phrase as we played and as they got comfortable they, being rockers, spontaneously began creating their own obscene phrases to fit the pattern, ending in a kind of call and response thing punctuated with laughter. What they didn't realize is that while they were having so much fun with the words, they locked into the timing. In less than an hour we were playing it through! They were thrilled and I was surprised at how quickly they got it.
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Eb dorian is the best place to start since it's the scale most suggested by the melody. I would avoid F# (or Gb) major because you will lose the C natural note. Putting in the odd A natural blue note here and there (think of Eb blues scale) would sound good too I reckon.
And Db and Ab major pentatonics might lead somewhere interesting.
Great tune Take 5, been trying to work out a solo arrangement in the far more guitar friendly key of E minor. Anyway, good luck with yours.Last edited by Nick0783; 02-05-2011 at 07:10 AM.
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