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I dont think you are talking about either, you just keep repeating Tree-Fruit Theory is so important, and you don't see why we are resisting that.
Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D
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02-12-2011 12:48 PM
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Hey Aristotle... Chord and scale spelling book... I like that, I don't know as to which way to view... as you said... "reference" works for me. For me when I see a chord symbol, I automatically see: chord scale, arpeggios, function, ( my quick analysis of context), what else I could pull harmonically from, subs and re-harms, for my next time through... all this is fairly instantaneous... sorry about throwing in more difficult tune... I always look to where what I'm doing will end up... how will it finish. Probably just for that reason... I forgot what the OP had even asked... my apologies... Reg Originally Posted by Aristotle
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No clue, which is why I would sit this one out. Originally Posted by Reg
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The reference to dorian and Mixo scales or modes... is just that, to be aware of what the harmonic area your soloing from. If you look at a bigger picture , your soloing on a tune, the entire tune... it's not a bar here or there , the complete tune. What your saying/playing is for the entire tune, that should be your first concept. You then start the process of breaking it down into sections, groups of bars, phrases etc... Which should all make reference to the tune. That's the part where you can use your character, skills, your ears to express what you hear. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
So as to why would I want to leave, philosophically... your not, it really doesn't matter which way you want to think/reference the harmonic area your pulling from... there all in reference to the tune your playing. When you start a solo, your first few statements basically set the table for what your going to do. Granted this may be difficult to see or understand if you don't understand the tune... but that's in the long run where your trying to get. Don't get hung up on the many methods or references as to how to express what your trying to play/say while soloing... eventually you'll use them all, instead of them using you... Reg
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He hasn't chimed in for a while now. And the thread has detoured. I am just trying to point out that trying to stretch what I post in this thread to prove it doesn't cover the outer limits tone rows squared, which is what Dr. Boob did first, is losing the context of the square-one question I am addressing. Originally Posted by Reg
I see all the scales and shapes too, if given a chord symbol. But that is the palette. It's not the reservoir for melodic ideas or the machinery for manipulating them. Do you think Ella Fitzgerald was studying CST?
I believe a large part of a jazz players repetoire is stored up stuff (stolen passages and composed passages) that "worked" somewhere, sometime. And then he realizes, hey, that Joe Miller is going to fit in perfectly right...here! And that ain't CST.Last edited by Aristotle; 02-12-2011 at 03:38 PM.
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"That's what I'm talkin' about!" (I always wanted an excuse to say that.) Ella was a great singer but when she took a solo (-'scatting') she was a helluva horn player. I think it was on the concert for Ellington's 70th birthday that she sang "Cottotail" (-there are some lyrics for it, and for "C Jam Blues" too, which is sung as "Duke's Place.") She took a chorus that no horn player on that stage wanted to follow! Man, she ripped it up, and with such glee. I've been listening to her duets with Louis Armstrong lately and that's some of the best music I ever heard. Louis gets carried away of "Stompin' At The Savoy," talking about Chick Webb and the old days, and Ella soars left and right. They're having a ball and she's brilliant. Originally Posted by Aristotle
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Oh, heck, here's a YouTube of it. Starts sweet and slow, then gets fast and furious. The real fun comes after her solo chorus and Louis'.
I don't know how she was thinking while improvising like this
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What scale is that?
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Dude, I gave up after a couple of posts. I just couldn't nail anyone down with an answer to the original question. At least not anyone who actually thinks about playing that way, and I've seen several posts where players talked about thinking that way over progressions. Originally Posted by Aristotle
I asked how (or why) you'd think about playing D dorian as opposed to G mixolydian when they're modes of the same scale. Most responses have been about finding value in all methods or problems people have with CST. I don't feel like anyone's touched the original question. If the modes are just a palette of notes to choose from, then D dorian and G Mixolydian are the same palette.
As for Ella, I think she was one of the greatest musical geniuses of all time. She could sing just about anything she could "hear" and she heard more than most other musicians. A lot of the technical instrumental stuff that's been discussed as being too difficult to sing, she sang, and I'm not just talking about those long scat solos. She throws in all kinds of difficult-to-sing arpeggiated patterns into her ballads and makes them sound easy.
So, I would argue that she was actually hearing more than most horn players. When people talk about being able to visualize notes on the fretboard for each chord change once you're aquainted with it really well, or playing sequences/patterns, I think, "What was she seeing/hearing/thinking?". I'm a singer as well, and picking up those instrument-specific lines is no small feat. Pure genius.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-12-2011 at 05:04 PM. Reason: goofy spelling
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Yeah, Ella was a player! I wonder how her mind worked when she sang. Maybe it had become instinct by then. She could be precise as anyone, but then she could toss of flourishes and impose one melody on another (--in another thread--about learning jazz melodies from recordings--you can hear a clip of her singing "Sunny Side of the Street" but using some phrases---vocal, not lyric--from "Exactly Like You") with a verve that leaves you smiling and nodding.
At least three great guitarists worked with her: Jim Hall, Joe Pass, and Herb Ellis. Did any of them talk about her as a musician? I don't know. Guess I should Google the matter....
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Hey Matt what don't you understand about scales or modes approach to chords as source for soloing? The reason you change, even when collection of notes are the same is because the context changes, at least when your using that method for reference. It's the same principle as Cmaj7 as compared to G7, same notes, different context, function how ever you want to hear the notes as compared to implied harmony. There are many levels of context... Did you read my last post? It might help get you past the methods concept. As I said there all methods to help you play/hear/sing what you hear, or what you thing you hear. Doesn't make it worth hearing, simply helps you reach that goal... if that's what your after... Best Reg
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Reg, I guess I just wanted to know more specifically what the thought process was. If you're playing dorian over a ii7, I know that 1, 3, 5, 7 are basically your chord tones. The other scale tones would be your extensions and I know that there are avoid notes and common chromatic alterations as well. Is this what you're thinking about when you play a given mode? If so, it's basically a reference to the harmony. Are you thinking dorian just as a reference to a kind of ii7 tone palette in terms of strong/weak or inside/outside sounds?
If it's something you'd rather address in a video response, those are always much appreciated. :-)
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Found the official Ella Fitzgerald website and among the quotes from her is this gem. "I stole everything I ever heard, but mostly I stole from the horns."
The Official Web Site of Ella Fitzgerald
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I thought several indicated it didn't matter, and told you one of Joe Pass's devices, and he said he thinks of it as G7. I thought I spent quite a bit of time on that and other ideas on using and developing known and succesful melody lines. I suggested the possibility of a formal study of (jazz) composition. This not idle chit-chat. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Jeremy in particular insists that it is important for you to think of it some way like that:
As D-Dor and G-Mix
All as D-Dor
All as G-Mix
But he never said which or what do after that, in order not to come up with a line that sucks.Last edited by Aristotle; 02-12-2011 at 08:31 PM.
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Aristotle, I do appreciate yours and all of the other replies.
My original question was "Why do players that think about it that way think about it that way. The majority of the replies either 1)came from players who don't think about it that way, 2) were general philisophical ideas as opposed to a specific thought process, or 3) (in my limited way of understanding the subject) seemed to be describing more of a chord tone emphasis that I would have thought to be more in line with anti-CST players' thinking. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
As you said, many of the replies had to do with not thinking about them as seperate modes. I didn't get many responses as to why someone would think about them as seperate modes.
I also understand that in the endgame harmony and melody aren't seperate entities, but how would one talk to a beginner about how to play in the way described in my original post?
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This is also the first time I noticed that my original example is wrong. D dorian and A mixolydian aren't modes of the same scale. Should've been D dorian and G mixo. Maybe that's some of the confusion.
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That's great. You can totally hear that in her singing. Originally Posted by markerhodes
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There are something like four separate conversations here!
To Matt, thinking mode is harmonically specific, thinking key is harmonically general to put it simply. The tone hierarchy between dorian and mixolydain is different. For example the guide tone b7 in dorian is the "avoid" P4 of mixolydian. The basic/extended tones all change as well.
Think of it like this, if it is all the same key, why bother changing chords even? Just play the chord Cmaj for four measures. The presence of certain notes and chords creates the push/pull of functional harmony within a key instead of just a static tonic. The modes are the same way. If the chord changes the mode changes. Your outline choices should change as well to reflect the differences.Last edited by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D; 02-12-2011 at 09:53 PM.
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I am not anti-CST. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Question 1: Is the chord is going to around long enough to establish itself as a separate tonal center or "mode?"
-Two beats each? Not long enough. Satin Doll, and almost the same thing in theme song from Bewitched. Similar main motif ignores chord change, because it is a vamp.
-Four beats each? Probably not. And IMO, that's why people want "substitute" for G7 with some type of Db7(#11,13).
Just like I did.I also understand that in the endgame harmony and melody aren't seperate entities, but how would one talk to a beginner about how to play in the way described in my original post?
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Alright. Withdrawn. Originally Posted by Aristotle
I don't know what the "label" should be. There just seems to be one group that doesn't really like to think in terms of CST as much and tends toward thinking more about playing on or targeting chord tones. A lot of what was described in the discussion on the modal approach in this thread tended to talk about the harmony in terms that sounded like this "chord tone" way of thinking.
I'm just trying to figure out what a CST player is thinking when they play dorian and then mixolydian (understanding that mixo may not be a hip choice over a V7 anyway. Let's call it hypothetical). Again if your thinking of dorian in terms of chord tones/extensions, inside/outside notes relative to a ii7 chord, isn't that pretty much the same thing the "chord tone" guys are describing? If not, what's the difference?Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-12-2011 at 10:22 PM. Reason: muffed grammar
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I knew what you meant. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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I think you are correct. Some see the scale surrounding the chord, others think in terms of the chords / arps inside the scale. Both can achieve the same results. However in both cases it is necessary to correctly target or resolve to chord tones. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
It seems that the so called "anti-CST' types don't believe it is possible to correctly resolve chord tones by thinking CST. This doesn't make any sense to me ... I share your confusion regarding the difference.
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I don't want to speak for anyone else, and I don't teach anyone except my son. But I wouldn't want you to latch onto anyone one thing, not CST, not chord tones, not any gimmick, or anything made into a gimmick. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
You are reminding me of a quote by a guy I otherwise can't stand (named Neitchke) who said something like - he who would fly, must first learn to stand, walk, and run; as one cannot fly his way into flying. You cannot CST your way into inventing musical phrases. Articulation, phrasing, dynamics, idiomaticism, line integrity, and rhythm are individually and collectively more important what functional relation a given note that last a small fraction of a second has to the current chord (or the larger progression).
Go ahead, say G-Mixo. what note does that translate to? Played what way? Is this a Steven Foster song, an immitation Bach invention, a Sinatra slow-ballad bomb? A 12-note per second Scrapple from the Apple?
Yes, you must practice all the patterns, arpeggios and modes, whatever of the three major chord types (the maj7 family, the min family, and the dom7 family), in all positions (or CAGED), and in all keys. There are books with these excercises, if you can't develop your own. This is where you familarize with your palette. But never mistake this as a substitute or a path to becoming a composer or a the fundamentals of that particular form of spontaneous composition called improvising jazz.Last edited by Aristotle; 02-13-2011 at 09:32 AM.
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First off, I think it is non chord tones that might need resolving. Second, isn't it a large part of jazz that we don't resolve what would need resolving in another idiom? Phrases end with 9ths, 6ths. or even b5ths in the melody. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
I am not speaking for anyone else, but nothing I posted was motived by fear of non reslution.
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I'm in danger of responding before reading page 4, but I'll tell you why I _once_ thought that way: I was taught that way. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
My guitar teacher taught me to think along those lines. And... there was no reason to think his approach was bad or faulty or "not right for me" - he was an awesome player. Also, all the Jamey Aebersold records I had had books that said play X scale over X chord, and this includes play the Dorian scale over the minor-2, play the Mixo over the dominant 5, play the Lydian Dominant over a dominant with a flat 5, etc.Last edited by jbraun002; 02-13-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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