Melodic use of chord tones?

[Shadow of the Sun]

...I'll admit that the title of this thread is probably misleading, but it's probably gonna draw folk in, so I'm not all that bothered.

Having decided that using scales as the one-peg-fits-all approach is kinda dumb, I'm looking at using arpeggios and chord tones to craft solos- even in the rock idiom, if I can wrangle it because I think it could work there, despite chord changes in rock being simpler and usually slower.

I divide soloing into two general types- horizontal and vertical. For the purposes of discussion, a vertical player is someone who runs arpeggios frequently and such; if we were going to describe this simply, they have a melodic contour like a sine-wave or such. A horizontal player would probably be more like Miles- the melodic contour being far more relaxed and I'd define that as being more 'melodic'.

Does anyone here know any really good examples of players who use chord tones in a melodic, horizontal, sense?

[docbop]

Bach.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Haha, thanks for the excellent example, docbop. =D

Do you reckon that Bach wrote using chord tones as his main means, or did he use chord tones to work with the major scale?

(I'm fully expecting the answer to be "Yes.")

[ksjazzguitar]

He did standard melodic practice at the time - generally landing on chord tones on strong beats and using the scale to fill in in between. It's a good approach. Obviously this will get boring in jazz if you do it all the time, but it is a good thing to learn how to do.

I still say, that once you've mastered that, real "inside" sound comes from understanding and highlighting the guide tones and dissonances and their resolution.

Peace,
Kevin

[Shadow of the Sun]

Thanks, Kevin. A practice I hope to study is taking a type of chord, and just sitting on it while practising a chromatic scale, simply so I get the sound of every interval over the top of it into my brain; you can't use a sound if you can't hear it.

The main reason I think chord-tone based soloing would work just as well in rock as in jazz is because, to quote Victor Wooten: "It's not the notes that make jazz jazz, or reggae reggae. It's the rhythms you use to highlight the notes."

[ksjazzguitar]

That's cool. I tend to think of the chromatic notes as highlighting the chord tones. Just like Bach would use scale tones to connect chord tones, that tends to be how I think of chromatic notes - always ending on a chord tone, often starting on one too. This is a very bebop way of thinking, but I think that is a good training tool, even if you eventually decide to move beyond it.

Peace,
Kevin

[Reg]

Does the chord symbol define chord tones... or how one implies them...Reg

[musicjohnny]

Reg,
Great insightful post!

[ksjazzguitar]

Sorry, Reg, I don't follow.

It is the job of the chord symbol to tell you what the chord tones are. One could argue that it is the chord tones that define the symbol, but that is a tautology that will just lead us in circles.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "imply chord tones" - you're either playing them or your not. Can you imply the 9th but never play it? But ultimately it is not the job of the chord symbol to tell you how to play, just what the harmonic background is.

So, sophomoric onanism aside, the answers to you questions are "yes" and "no" - pretty much by definition. I don't see how that enlightens the OP's questions.

Really, Reg, you have this habit of asking vague, psuedo-philosophical questions, like you think you're some Yoda/Zen master. Can you enlighten me on how these questions elucidate the question at all?

Peace,
Kevin

[mr. beaumont]

Hey, musicjohnny likes 'em. Or he's just a big smart ass.

If I'm on the same page as Reg (which who knows if I am, but, what the heck...) I think he's getting at the idea that chord symbols are a guide in a lot of charts, not an ultimatum. So when somebody hands me a chart that says Cmaj7 and I play a D, resulting in a Cmaj9 sound--I'm still seeing that as a "chord tone."

So now, if I go back to the OP, the answer seems to be "everyone and no one." Nobody's creating great flowing melodic lines playing only the chord tones that the chart "allows." I say it over and over (can you hear trane coming in with that sax?) A chord tone approach is a navigational tool, not a prescribed set of notes to play.

[pingu]

Does anyone here know any really good examples of players who use chord tones in a melodic, horizontal, sense?

Charlie Christian ?
Joe Pass
Barney
all the Swing guys really
or I've miss understood the vert / hor thing ... never did get that

[Reg]

I was asking, because many charts use different changes, so are we at mercy of some clown making $ writing out leadsheets,( I use the term because that was one job during early years of college, made $25 a piano leadsheet...) and to simply remind others that just because the chart has a chord symbol... don't think other chords aren't implied.
Listen to the melody, and there are many standard chord patterns used in Jazz that are not notated... anyway... rather than tell others how to hear or what the correct way to play, I would rather try and get players to think about what else might be going on.
As for the vert/horz thing... I think of both almost all the time... all the time. Best Reg

[docbop]

I was asking, because many charts use different changes, so are we at mercy of some clown making $ writing out leadsheets,( I use the term because that was one job during early years of college, made $25 a piano leadsheet...) and to simply remind others that just because the chart has a chord symbol... don't think other chords aren't implied.
Listen to the melody, and there are many standard chord patterns used in Jazz that are not notated... anyway... rather than tell others how to hear or what the correct way to play, I would rather try and get players to think about what else might be going on.
As for the vert/horz thing... I think of both almost all the time... all the time. Best Reg

But at the same time Jazz musicians the lead sheet chord changes are just a starting point that they then start adding chord subs, re-harmonizing, and pretty much change everything but the basic structure of the song. Which is why good ears are so important and define the quality of player and work they get called for.

[ksjazzguitar]

OK, I guess I see Reg's point now, although I think it was worded bizarrely, like some kind of a quasi-Zen koan. Perhaps I would have understood if the question was asked more directly.

But also I think the fact of whether you are using the standard chord changes of others is irrelevant to the question. The changes you are using are the changes you are using.

For example, in "Georgia" in the second half of measure 5, I usually put an E7 (VII7) instead the D7 (VI7) that many people use. Which is correct? It is irrelevant to the question of "how do I use chord tones in my line" - the OP's question. The chords that I'm using are the chords that I'm using and those are the only ones that matter when I craft my line.

Of course, this is assuming that the chords are not horrendously wrong and lead to bad voice leading, etc. But that is a separate issue and not what the OP was asking. I agree that people shouldn't take lead sheets as Gospel, but that is a different topic.

Peace,
Kevin

[max_power]

Does anyone here know any really good examples of players who use chord tones in a melodic, horizontal, sense?

I think a better question would be: Does anyone here know any really good examples of players who DON'T use chord tones in a melodic, horizontal sense?

[Reg]

Does the chord symbol define chord tones... or how one implies them...Reg

Hey Kevin... how about, as you said;
a non bizarrely worded, non quasi-Zen koan and more directly.... example of my question... Reg

[Aristotle]

Bach.

That was my answer. Invention 13 is almost entirely melody by chord tone, (also known as, arpeggios?).

[ksjazzguitar]

Hey Kevin... how about, as you said;
a non bizarrely worded, non quasi-Zen koan and more directly.... example of my question... Reg

Well...Reg I think ... non-Zen koan ... stream of consciousness ... cats like tuna ... sentence fragments ... hard to understand ... how do you define sentence ... asking question directly ... statements that are complete thoughts ... what is a thought ... are thoughts made of cheese ... fragment of thought ...question ... restatement ... of ... I own stock ... in company ... that manufactures ... ellipses ... I know of ... no other ... punctuation ... altered scale ... I have PDD ... punctuation deficit disorder ... are we there yet ...

OK, hopefully you don't take that as too mean spirited. It was just meant as a playful jab.

Sorry Reg, but you aren't the easiest person to understand or follow sometimes. I'm still not 100% sure what you meant, but am now convinced that you meant something. As I understand what you were trying to say, I might have said something like, "You have to keep in mind that chord charts are just guidelines (and are sometimes wrong) and there are other harmonies that can be implied through subs and/or reharms." That I would have understood, and agreed with. I wouldn't say that other chords are implied, but that they can be inferred.

But it's cool.

Peace,
Kevin

[lkmuller]

Hey Reg, keep'em coming. You got some chops. Some guys type, others play. Everybody here knows where you are. Well, almost everybody, lol.

[Aristotle]

OK, hopefully you don't take that as too mean spirited.

He probably takes it as just the right amount.

[ksjazzguitar]

Some guys type, others play.

I wasn't aware that they were mutually exclusive.

Peace,
Kevin

[lkmuller]

I wasn't aware that they were mutually exclusive.

Peace,
Kevin

Well, bottom line - you're a pompous jerk who probably aced Music Appreciation but just can't get it with his instrument, no matter howhard he tries.

[ksjazzguitar]

Wow, now we've reached a new level of childishness. Really, what is this based on?

What's next? Are you going to tell me that your daddy can beat up my daddy?

This is a discussion on a forum. The ability to be understood is important. We all play our own things at different levels. There are things that I could criticize about certain other players, but I don't - it's childish and has nothing to do with their ability to analyze and communicate information. They are two different skills.

I poked a little fun at Reg's writing style since he seems mystified as to why I can never understand what he is saying. For a guy who claims to have done grad work, he seems to have a lot of trouble putting together clear and coherent thoughts.

Now grow up and try to contribute something instead of assuming what my guitar skills and education are and aren't - it's clear that know nothing about either. I know, there are a lot of people who go to great pains to post videos so they can show off and impress the kiddies - I've gotten over that childish need a long time ago. I really don't care about what a bunch of random guys on the internet think. I have the respect of people whom I respect and that is all I care about (including a nice note from Howard Morgan ). No offense guys, but why would a bunch of people that I haven't met trump that? If you want to think I can't play, go ahead. If you think I'm a blow hard, go ahead. But I reserve the right to think that all that posturing is just a childish attempt to avoid the content of what I'm saying. Ad hominem attacks are just that - a childish distraction trying to divert attention from what someone is saying by attacking the person directly. I judge people by the content of what they say, not by your playground pecking order BS.

Peace,
Kevin

[Shadow of the Sun]

So now, if I go back to the OP, the answer seems to be "everyone and no one." Nobody's creating great flowing melodic lines playing only the chord tones that the chart "allows." I say it over and over (can you hear trane coming in with that sax?) A chord tone approach is a navigational tool, not a prescribed set of notes to play.

I wasn't thinking of that exactly, just to bring the point back to this so that the sniping stops. I wasn't trying to imply that players who use a chord tone centred approach (as a navigational tool and as targets) use NOTHING BUT chord tones.

This will hopefully make what I was asking: a lot of bebop players, who are the best examples I know about of players using a specifically chord tone based approach instead of chord-scale methods, have lines that have a VERY wide tessitura- in the course of an 8 bar segment of a Bird solo, he jumps around 2 and a half octaves in a very melodic way. What I was asking is: are there any bop players, or those we KNOW to use a chord-tone centric approach who solo with a reasonably small tessitura? Within a single octave, perhaps? Without massive interval leaps?

[mr. beaumont]

I feel like you're overthinking this a bit-- a chord tone navigational was pretty much "it" until kind of blue. There's literally 1,000's of examples of the type of playing your talking about, and it's often done by the same players who could play with a wide tessitura in their lines.

Case in point, listen to Het Baker play an "up" number, followed by a ballad.