alt scale shapes ....

[pingu]

I'm currently using 2 shapes only for Altered Scale duties

Eg in G minor ......for the D7alt chord
I use a 3rd posn shape off D on the 5th string 5th fret
and a 10th position shape off D on the 4th string 12th fret

What is the next good shape to get in my fingers and ears ?
how many shapes do you guys use ?

[Reg]

Next go to 6th, then 8th and after 10th then to 13 and your covered...
So for Daltered 3rd, 6th, 8th, 10th and 13th... Play the arpeggios and approach the start by 1/2 step or whole step ...Reg

[pingu]

Thanks Reg
I'm gonna take these 'one shape at a time sweet Jesus'

[Aristotle]

Make yourself a diagram. The process of doing that should help you visualize.

If you really can't figure them out, this site has a scale finder. To find what most people call the Alt Scale on a D7, enter in the information for Eb ascending melodic minor, and the scale patter appears on the adjacent fretboard.

Guitar Chord Finder | Guitar Scales

[Reg]

Hey that's cute...and in color... at least most agree of pitch collection for D altered
Best Reg

[Aristotle]

This is good site.

[Moonray]

That fingerboard site is good value alright.

Note, that for the specific scale you wanted to see,
[D altered wasn't it?].....scroll down further on the scale
quality column on the right and you'll find "diminished-whole tone''
....which is another alias of this scale.



The advantage using this name is that the Root Notes [D in this case]
are displayed in a contrasting colour...so you can relate the info much more
easily to the chord you're playing on....D7alt

.....BTW I think David Baker, one of the founding fathers of the jazz-ed
biz,["the ABC's"] coined the name diminished-whole tone scale....which actually describes its construction accurately.

However ..for me it was [in the latish 70's] just another hurdle to jump..
and it wasn't until I took David Baker's book along with a boatload of others
and compared, by interval all the scales that were suggested to be played
over a dom 7 with 5's & 9's being doubly altered ..........superlocrian [sounded scary] dim/wt etc etc ...that I tried the very simple expedient
of making a list of the actual pitch names of each scale offered.....
[in C, to keep things simple]....and Lo and Behold..when I wrote these
pitches down in each of the 7 rotations...I came to plain old C melodic
minor!
For those of you that haven't snoozed off,or scrolled down to a more
succinct post....my point is that I figured out for myself a way through
something that was confusing the hell out of me.......[I had no teacher]

Imagine a few weeks later...the Aebersold Jazz Juggernaut rolled into
New Zealand for one of those week long workshops...taking the guitar class
on alternate days were Steve Erquiaga and a not yet very well known Mr
Scofield.....the inevitable handouts were given out ..and there on Steve's
scale sheet was, you guessed it, the 7th mode of the melodic minor...
AKA altered,superduperlocrian and so on......I couldn't contain my
frustration to having figured out this thing that had really had been bothering me...and groaned out loud....[a public Doh moment]....Steve
says "what's the problem"...I told him what I've just said here.....he
laughed and said something like.."well you're Really gonna know that thing"

Sooo.....I suggest trying to figure as much out for yourself as you can.
In the areas of theoretical matters, such as scales and chords and chord
superimpositions you'd be surprised how almost everything is related to
something you already know.

I should have introduced myself....I'm in Auckland, New Zealand and have
been lurking with intent [to learn that is]
This is a fine forum indeed ..I feel I know some of you already.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Moonray

That fingerboard site is good value alright.

Note, that for the specific scale you wanted to see,
[D altered wasn't it?].....scroll down further on the scale
quality column on the right and you'll find "diminished-whole tone''
....which is another alias of this scale.

The advantage using this name is that the Root Notes [D in this case]
are displayed in a contrasting colour...so you can relate the info much more
easily to the chord you're playing on....D7alt

.....BTW I think David Baker, one of the founding fathers of the jazz-ed
biz,["the ABC's"] coined the name diminished-whole tone scale....which actually describes its construction accurately.

I never would have found it under that name. I though that mean a diminished that starts with a whole instead of a half. But I understand the logic. The D Eb F F# part of the scale is part of the dimished. The F# G# A# C D part resembles the WT.

[pingu]

Great tips guys thanks

how many disinct shapes do yous guys use regularly for D7 alt ?

I use 2 at the mo , Reg uses 5 !

I'm gonna learn another one
I think the one at 5th/6th posn looks cool next ,
you can resolve to a top 4 strings 5th pos G min chord)

[FatJeff]

"Superduperlocrian" - classic.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by pingu

Reg uses 5

Uh...12? What can I say? I was never CAGED.

I have never been able to figure out how to stay within a scale form and "improvise." Can't think of what sounds I want to hear, and be able visualize all the scale shapes and select the nearest and most congenially fingered one in time. Unless I am playing my Joe Miller's, which tend to be short. If I need to go from the G scale notes to A-flat from the D alt notes, I reach out of position if neessary and keep going. Depending on where I am, my pinky reaches up or my index reaches down. After that, my hand shifts itself if it recognizes a comfort zone (or doesn't).

Here's what happened when I started to practice this. I'd go slow, 8-to-the-bar, one octave up the scale (inside scale, G major) and the next back down (outisde scale Dalt). If I have to just go up D to D (in G) and back down D to D (in D alt), I can stay inside the two forms because there is only one pivot point. But when I have to put in movement, that is the first measure G to G (in G) second measure descends and alternates A to A (in D alt adjusting A to Ab), the third measure ascends B to B, the fourth measure descends C to C, etc. I'd end up four frets away from where I started out. And the next time, I'd end up taking a different path.

Every day, I used to take a phrase, and keep repeating it, each time moving my hand one fret up the board, because I was afraid of getting stuck in a "position" I didn't know.

So now, the internet is full of Jimmy Bruno's teaching people to play in five shapes. God bless you, if you can do it. I wish I could. I have enough "think" left over to sense a few notes ahead, and where those notes are. But nowehre near enough reserve think to figure out what "shape" they are part of.

There are people who can play 50 games of chess at once, blindfolded. I ain't one of em. If you can figure out how your own head works - right-brain, left-brain, etc - you tailor your learning systems to your own aptitudes. Heck, if you can just think sounds and shift up and down one string and hit them with one finger without looking, you'd be better off bulding a style on that, than using anything anyone is teaching.

[Reg]

I agree with Aristotle... was suggesting other positions to help fill the gaps with simi easy fingerings... eventually there are really no positions... you simply get the notes out where your hand is and move when there not there....Reg

[ubiguitar]

Following this link (Altered Scale) you'll find a free pdf with different scale positions and different approach to play this scale.

Hope it helps .

[Reg]

Hey Moonray... I was introduced to altered in 60's, (that makes since) through similar paths. Meet a sax player at gig in 70 or 71 who introduced altered and from where... Lights went on... I've been delusional ever since...Reg

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by ubiguitar

Following this link (Altered Scale) you'll find a free pdf with different scale positions and different approach to play this scale.

Hope it helps .

To a glance at the diagrams. On the first scale, I notice the diagram has you reaching out of the position on the G-string for a note that should be right under your 1-finger on the B-string. Makes you wonder if the stuff is computer generated. Only reason for doing that is that you want to maintain a 3-notes-per-string type of form.

[Aristotle]

I noticed the whole first row of chords is 3 notes per string.

FWIW, you should look for this scale form out of the regular major scale forms.
-Probably the least headache-y way of doing it is: Play the major scale with a lowered third.
-Another is to play the major scale with the raised root (that's the one I used, as I am a "sol-feg" kind of guy - and the altered note is the syllable "di" in the Lyd-Dom scale).
-A third way - and this could work because you should have already practiced the Aeolian Mode and Harmonic Minor of each form, is to play your Harmonic Minor with a raised 6th.

By the time you can go back forth - playing and singing - the Harmonic Minor and the Jazz Minor (a mode of the alt-scale), your fingers and ears will have arrived.