Pat Martino - Multiple Substitutions

[M-ster]

We discussed this recently, and I wanted to study it for myself. Here's the video:

YouTube Video

And here's the transcription:
Transcription (PDF)

Lots of "favorite moves" repeated in these. Check out how bars 1 and 2 parallel bars 18 and 19, for example. Compare bar 5 with 22. First 3 beats of 14 and first 3 of 28. Etc., etc.

Enjoy.

[kris]

Good work.
I did same one year ago.I am interesting how many mistakes I did.I have to cheque my one year old transcrition...:-)
Any suggestion on fingerings .It is not easy staff/fast tempos/.
Best
KRIS

[PaulD]

Thanks M-ster, I had not seen this video before.

Paul

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by kris

Good work.
I did same one year ago.I am interesting how many mistakes I did.I have to cheque my one year old transcrition...:-)
Any suggestion on fingerings .It is not easy staff/fast tempos/.
Best
KRIS

I won't claim mine is definitive, either. It seems you can always find errors and omissions when you return to one of these.

But, I started to look at a few transcriptions that were posted on the other thread. They were incomplete, and they seemed inconsistent with the vid', so I got sucked in to working on it, myself.

I'm usually reluctant to set down the tab. I don't read it as easily as I read the notes, and I usually change my mind about the fingerings as I dig in to the riffs more deeply. With video, granted, one could attempt to portray what the artist is actually doing.

[orasnon]

Wow, thanks M-ster for fueling my Martino addiction

May I ask what software you use for transcribing videos? I have a Video Surgeon but it is only capable of slowing to 50%. Sometimes this is not enough for me. Case in point: check out this Martino solo at 1:56. Pat starts playing a recurring motif that uses wide intervals, but I can't seem to pinpoint the notes even at 1/2 reduced speed. Can your software slow videos down past half-speed?

I'll be your "online best friend" if you can tell me what notes these are

YouTube - Pat Martino " Guitar Forms" Live 1968

[mslavik]

M-ster--Thanks for posting the mind-blowing Martino clip.

What's the musical theory underlying his substitutions? It appears to be close to the option of playing Melodic Minor scales over a dominant chord. This seems to be the case because of Pat's use of Em, Bm and Gm. However, if my memory serves, D-flat minor doesn't fit into the approach I'm describing here...

Could you give me a pointer on this?

Thanks!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by mslavik

M-ster--Thanks for posting the mind-blowing Martino clip.

What's the musical theory underlying his substitutions? It appears to be close to the option of playing Melodic Minor scales over a dominant chord. This seems to be the case because of Pat's use of Em, Bm and Gm. However, if my memory serves, D-flat minor doesn't fit into the approach I'm describing here...

Could you give me a pointer on this?

Thanks!

I hope this is less mystical than Pat!

Consider these four dominant 7th chords:

A7 = A C# E G
C7 = C E G Bb
Eb7 = Eb G Bb Db
Gb7 = Gb Bb Db Fb

I went up minor thirds. Any two of them have a pair of notes in common, if I extend them to 7b9 chords without a root, I get the same diminished chord:

A7b9 = (A) C# E G Bb
C7b9 = (C) E G Bb Db
Eb7b9 = (Eb) G Bb Db Fb
Gb7b9 = (Gb) Bb Db Fb Abb

I can play the same diminished 7th scale over all those 7b9 chords:

A Bb C C# D# E F# G

This is as you would expect, since the diminished scale has that minor third symmetry. What does the diminished scale have to do with the jazz minor scale? Replace any two notes a major second apart with the note in between and you get a jazz minor scale:

A B C# D# E F# G = E JM
A Bb C D E F# G = G JM
A Bb C Db Eb F G = Bb JM
Bb C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab = Db JM

There are your 4 minor scales. The Db JM scales, with Ab and Bb is quite outside for A7, but that's the intended effect.

[mslavik]

Big Daddy,

Thank you so much for taking the time to lay all this out for me. I look forward to experimenting with it!

[kris]

e min melodic over A7#5
where is f ?

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by kris

e min melodic over A7#5
where is f ?

FWFW, Martino seems to be using E-Dorian. But that doesn't have an F either.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

It seems the #5 is incidental. Pat would do this over all kinds of A7's.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Here's one more take on why you might ride one of those jazz minor scales (E, Bb, G, C#) over an A dominant chord. I'm flying by the seat of my pants here, tell me what you think!

1. E JM : no-brainer. E JM is A lydiuan dominant, an A mixolydian scale with a #11 (D#). A tweak on A mixolydian.

2. Bb JM: no-brainer. Bb JM is A altered.

Now consider the relationship between a major scale and its relative minor. Songs in C major often toss in an A minor phase; the two are closely related. You can play an A minor phase over C major and it can work. In that light, you jump between their dominants, playing a G7 phrase over E7 and vice versa. Then:

3. G JM: This is the lydian dominant for C7. C7 is the dom of F major and A7 is the dom of its relative minor, D minor. So this is like playing F major over D minor.

4 C# JM: this is the lydian dominant for F#7. F#7 is the dom of B minor and A7 is the dom of its relative major, D. So this is like playing B minor over D major.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

It seems the #5 is incidental. Pat would do this over all kinds of A7's.

We had another thread on this last week. I posted the tube and transcription in that one.

I don't think anyone answered the question. Does this seem to work because the ear begins to forget the exact gravity of the A& chord, just begins to follow the gravity of what are relatively plain-vanilla dorain lines? And then the ear is drawn back because he ends the lick by hitting a bunch of A's and then there is a resounding of the chord?

So therefore:
1. It doesn't matter exactly what version of the A7 it is, and
2. Because the ear is following the line, it's doesn't matter that the chord scale is the - whatever - tritone of the flat five sub's uncle's cousin's daughter on the maternal side?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I admit I'm mainly watching his fingers fly in that video and wondering what make the strings are -- La Bella black nylon?

[M-ster]

I think BDLH's 12:50 post (discussing the 4 dim7 chords and their relationship to the dom7) is the jumping off point.

As Aristotle points out, though, Pat's lines seem to be based off of dorian, and not jazz minor.

Regarding the "but why does it work?" question: I tend to think that it's the integrity of the lines and the speed at which they're executed. They chromaticism is all handled, they're strong lines on their own, and they're flowing by too quickly to object to any one note over the static harmony.

Plus, it's a dominant 7th chord, out of context. Almost any note (some would say "Any note ...") is accepted over a 7th chord.

I knew a pianist that used to say "Dom 7? That's where you break out your tone rows."

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by orasnon

Wow, thanks M-ster for fueling my Martino addiction

May I ask what software you use for transcribing videos? I have a Video Surgeon but it is only capable of slowing to 50%. Sometimes this is not enough for me. Case in point: check out this Martino solo at 1:56. Pat starts playing a recurring motif that uses wide intervals, but I can't seem to pinpoint the notes even at 1/2 reduced speed. Can your software slow videos down past half-speed?

I'll be your "online best friend" if you can tell me what notes these are

YouTube - Pat Martino " Guitar Forms" Live 1968

You're after the wide stuff just before the "Flight of the Bumble Bee" quotes? I thin' I can get that! This video's audio quality isn't that great, but at least you can hear the guitar.

I'm using Seventh String's Transcribe! for the audio playback, etc., and Sibelius for the notation. Yes, Transcribe will go down to 1% of the original speed, if you want to (the audio may become indiscernable by then, though). I sometimes go down to 35%, when needed.

[M-ster]

orasnon - try this: Martino - Guitar Forms (excerpt)

I started 16 bars before the "Bumble Bee" stuff starts - from about 1:54 into the audio. Your wide interval stuff starts in the 3rd complete bar of this excerpt.

I apologize. I just dove in and grabbed what you wanted. I hope I placed it right, rhythmically. I put no key signature, and there are no changes notated. It's also at concert pitch ...

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Regarding the "but why does it work?" question: I tend to think that it's the integrity of the lines and the speed at which they're executed. They chromaticism is all handled, they're strong lines on their own, and they're flowing by too quickly to object to any one note over the static harmony.

But doesn't that say a lot about the whole idea of substitution, and the "rules" on it? Doesn't it mean that it doesn't really matter that his roots are a minor 3rd apart? And that much of the rest of the numerology (you can use a II-chord, because it's the square root of IV) doesn't matter? To paraphrase politics, "It's the line, stupid." I don't sense any significant difference running one these patterns using Fmin or Dmin. Just finishing up by banging a few A-notes. And hit the chord again.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

But doesn't that say a lot about the whole idea of substitution, and the "rules" on it?

Yes, I think it does. I'm one that chafes at suggestions that there are absolute *rules*. There are theories, there are frameworks of organizational thought, but ultimately the artist can and will do whatever they want.

And, I suppose, as listeners and enthusiasts we either accept or reject it.

But, it strikes me that, with his level of expertise and technique, PM could make anything "work." He could have played any dorian over that A7, IMHO.

[Aristotle]

M-Ster, I am not saying you are wrong, and we both know what we mean by substitution "rules."

I learned substitution first from Joe Pass books, then had summer semester of chord substitution with the guy in this YouTube. This was many year ago, when his playing was just far "out," while now sounds almost "random."
YouTube - The Dom Minasi Trio @ CBGB'S 2005-All The Things You Are

This course started out with simple rules, like subbing a IIIm for I, which is just an extension. I think the next one was VIm for I, and then flip-flopping IIm and V. After a few class sessions the rules started getting numerous, and the combinng the rules two or three at a time was creating many counter-intuitive results (Cmaj could become Eb13 - flat-five of the VIm sub for I).

Then one day, the rules crossdd a line. The "system" no longer had containment. I voiced my suspicions. I said that with the addition of today's rule, I can now start with a C maj and get to any major or minor chord (and any extension) built on any of the other 11 roots in three rules or less. And while I thought I was blowing the cover off a scam or uncovering a paradox, he beamed like the proud teacher who's student has just seen the great light, and said, "Yeah! That's the beauty of the system."

Well, to me, that's not a system. That's choas. His workups changed chords on every beat. And swore he was playing the notes of all those changes (which would have been 2 notes each). About 1/3 of the way through the class, everyone was convined -that while he sounded good and might even be trying to play what he said - this was BS. I think he lost whatever command of our attention he had left, the day he went through his rule-maze and subbed his way back to the original chord, wrote in the board, played it on his guitar to show us how hip the sequence of changes was - and didn't seem to realize it.

In a way, Martino is going the same thing in this tube, but I am not ready to go along with the "so skillfully" part. He has only one rule - minor thirds. He stays in the subbed tonality long enough for your ear to figure out that he did, and forget the original chord.

Tell you what. You get an accompaniment that can sustain the chord volume and play Martino's lines as eight notes, and they don't sound so good.

[pingu]

Yeah I was wondering if the lines would work at moderate tempos
my kind of tempos !
Pat is so fast and clean
and I do know that the faster you play
the more 'random out' stuff you force to work

Pat certainly makes it work for him tho

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by pingu

... Pat is so fast and clean ... Pat certainly makes it work for him ...

This is what I'm saying, too. Pat can get way out, relative to the harmony of the moment, because he is so articulate and handles the chromaticism and "re-entry" so well.

Originally Posted by aristotle

Tell you what. You get an accompaniment that can sustain the chord volume and play Martino's lines as eight notes, and they don't sound so good.

Agreed, but I think it's because I'm not nearly so competent a player. If I give you enough time to "hear" all the notes relative to the underlying static harmony, you'll start identifying individual notes as "in" or "out."

But, PM certainly doesn't need me to defend him. I just think what he's doing either turns you on or it doesn't. It turns me on. I'm not hurt or offended if it doesn't turn everyone else on. It's all good.

[docbop]

As Chick Corea said.... It doesn't matter what your play outside its all about how you come back inside.


Then Howard Roberts said.. Any note works if you play it fast enough. Howard also said in a seminar... Hit a bad note, just hit it again so they think you wanted to play it in the first place. H.R. was a dirty guitar player.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by M-ster

But, PM certainly doesn't need me to defend him.

I am not criticizing him. He only needs the head of the tune to blow me away with phrasing alone.

Howard also said in a seminar... Hit a bad note, just hit it again so they think you wanted to play it in the first place. H.R. was a dirty guitar player.

I once described that as the method of playing New Age. In Bop, you just leave it there, try to look as cool as Miles, and make the audience think it's their mistake for not getting it.

[M-ster]

orasnon hasn't returned for his Martino snippet!

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...tml#post120035

[orasnon]

M-ster, can't thank you enough for taking the time to transcribe that for me!! Sorry I didn't respond earlier - been really busy lately. I really appreciate all your contributions to this forum. Much appreciated! Let's now see if I can actually play it....

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by orasnon

... Much appreciated! Let's now see if I can actually play it....

You are quite welcome. (My advice is to count it off very slowly! )

[marcwv]

I wanted to give all of you a little background of my self as I think it would be informative .
I started playing Guitar at about 15 years old. Played professionally at 16 years old........meaning I was already playing in Broadway show pit Orchestras at 16 .
I had moved to Los Angeles in 1970 and had begun to be a part of the studio scene but never really made it ! I had even subbed for Tom Tedesco a few times. I gave up playing guitar for 25 years(and I mean not even touching it).
I just started playing again.
Now back to this thread!
I love Pats playing because the execution is that of a pianist other than a Sax, as sooo! may players have emulated !
I guess the constant analysis of solos and transcriptions (of any player) we hope will give us an insight into how he does it. This is great in a way because it shows our admiration of the players work .
But to me it isn't the lines as much as the execution!
Although Pat has created some beautiful lines that work well on guitar...very few execute them like Pat and hence those Lines don't always sound the same him doing it !
Marc

[kris]

This is jazz-creative music!

[Philco]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

M-Ster,
Tell you what. You get an accompaniment that can sustain the chord volume and play Martino's lines as eight notes, and they don't sound so good.

I agree with this and I've mentioned it another thread not so long ago. It's ok to play those subs in isolation, with a piano player stabbing the chords. You can play just about whatever you want.
Reality is, if you actually transcribe Pat's solos he DOESN'T use the minor subs over altered chords. he uses the same scales as we all use. Super Locrian and MMinor. He may not call them by those names but that's what he uses.
He sticks right on the chord tones with some chromatics every time.
The minor sub thing is great for maj and min but not for altered chords.

What Pat never talks about is his incredible skill at playing through complex changes at fast tempos.
On the early records it's just superhuman.
But I think he takes that skill for granted and feels that his sub theory would make a better video.
Regardless of that, those videos are a goldmine.