The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by orasnon
    ... Much appreciated! Let's now see if I can actually play it....
    You are quite welcome. (My advice is to count it off very slowly! )

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  3. #27

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    I wanted to give all of you a little background of my self as I think it would be informative .
    I started playing Guitar at about 15 years old. Played professionally at 16 years old........meaning I was already playing in Broadway show pit Orchestras at 16 .
    I had moved to Los Angeles in 1970 and had begun to be a part of the studio scene but never really made it ! I had even subbed for Tom Tedesco a few times. I gave up playing guitar for 25 years(and I mean not even touching it).
    I just started playing again.
    Now back to this thread!
    I love Pats playing because the execution is that of a pianist other than a Sax, as sooo! may players have emulated !
    I guess the constant analysis of solos and transcriptions (of any player) we hope will give us an insight into how he does it. This is great in a way because it shows our admiration of the players work .
    But to me it isn't the lines as much as the execution!
    Although Pat has created some beautiful lines that work well on guitar...very few execute them like Pat and hence those Lines don't always sound the same him doing it !
    Marc

  4. #28

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    This is jazz-creative music!
    Last edited by kris; 04-30-2012 at 06:10 AM.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle
    M-Ster,
    Tell you what. You get an accompaniment that can sustain the chord volume and play Martino's lines as eight notes, and they don't sound so good.
    I agree with this and I've mentioned it another thread not so long ago. It's ok to play those subs in isolation, with a piano player stabbing the chords. You can play just about whatever you want.
    Reality is, if you actually transcribe Pat's solos he DOESN'T use the minor subs over altered chords. he uses the same scales as we all use. Super Locrian and MMinor. He may not call them by those names but that's what he uses.
    He sticks right on the chord tones with some chromatics every time.
    The minor sub thing is great for maj and min but not for altered chords.

    What Pat never talks about is his incredible skill at playing through complex changes at fast tempos.
    On the early records it's just superhuman.
    But I think he takes that skill for granted and feels that his sub theory would make a better video.
    Regardless of that, those videos are a goldmine.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    I agree with this and I've mentioned it another thread not so long ago. It's ok to play those subs in isolation, with a piano player stabbing the chords. You can play just about whatever you want.
    Reality is, if you actually transcribe Pat's solos he DOESN'T use the minor subs over altered chords. he uses the same scales as we all use. Super Locrian and MMinor. He may not call them by those names but that's what he uses.
    He sticks right on the chord tones with some chromatics every time.
    The minor sub thing is great for maj and min but not for altered chords.

    What Pat never talks about is his incredible skill at playing through complex changes at fast tempos.
    On the early records it's just superhuman.
    But I think he takes that skill for granted and feels that his sub theory would make a better video.
    Regardless of that, those videos are a goldmine.
    What are you talking about...:-( ?
    are you a profesional?

  7. #31

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    I'm a pro muso but not a professional player.
    I have spent an enormous amount of my playing life listening to and transcribing Pat.

    It's just an observation of mine and by no means fact.
    After studying what Pat actually plays on record it's my opinion that he doesn't use his minor sub system when he plays over altered chords.
    From the solos I have worked through he plays other scales over the altered chords.
    Including Super Locrian, MMinor and half whole.

    I just finished working through "Along Came Betty". His usual minor runs are all there EXCEPT when he encounters any altered dominant chords. For those chords it's the standard altered scales.
    He also spells out the chord tones of the dominant altered chords.

    Disclaimer: I'm no expert on Jazz harmony....not by a very, very long shot.
    Most people on this list could put me to shame in that department.
    But I have done some hard work on Pats stuff over the years.
    I'm not going to say that my dissection of what Pat does is 100% correct.
    I put it to you as an alternative view.

    My old boss, a fine musician himself, once said to me "everyone cooks with water".
    I think there's a lot of truth in that.
    However, that approach does not sound profound or make for an interesting sales angle.
    If you get my drift

    BTW I admire Pat Martino more than any other Jazz guitar player. I don't mean to sound critical, but his stuff is harder to play than it is to understand.

  8. #32

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    I have his Linear Expresions book...he show there how to use minor lines over chords...great book!!!

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    Reality is, if you actually transcribe Pat's solos he DOESN'T use the minor subs over altered chords. he uses the same scales as we all use. Super Locrian and MMinor.
    Pat uses minor dorian with some chromatic ideas over altered chords!
    I know different solos of Mr. Martino and also in book Linear Expression the minor lines over the 7 altered are dorians

    If you see the book of LES WISE (REH edition) you will see the substitution of Bb minor dorian over G7 ... the same it's with dominant frigian ... that can be seen as dorian ... (es: F dorian is G dominant frigian) ...

  10. #34

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    Those "some chromatic ideas" are where the nub of the discussion hinges.
    Because they usually (in the tracks that I've worked out) are the altered notes of the chord.
    Naming conventions make things more difficult than they need be.
    When I work out what Pat uses over say an A7b13#9 I can actually see the shape of the chord in the notes he plays. Then a few bars later it's a F#7b13#9 and he just moves the whole shape down and plays the same notes.....in a different order.
    Over these he plays melodic minor one half step up or Super Lochrian.
    The dorian conversion doesn't fit over those chords. You have to add "chromatic passing notes" that actually make it a Super Lochrian scale anyway.
    Why not call it what it is?

    However, whenever he sees a m7b5 then it's Dorian all the way.
    But that's because ....say...... Bm7b5 is diatonic in it's relationship to Dminor
    It's a Dm with a B in the bass.



    If you use the minor concept over altered notes there are to many "wrong" notes and it tends to sound vague and not focused.
    When Pat plays over Altered Dominants on his records he always nails the notes in the chord. There are not that many passing notes. He always sounds focused on the chord.
    When he plays the minor conversion concept over altered chords in his video it sounds wrong to me. It's just all over the place and not focused.

    What Pat didn't do on his video is improvise over a standard tune and use the minor conversion technique.

    On the video your ears get used to hearing altered dominant chord after altered dominant chord with Pat using all the minor conversions. It just sounds modal and we accept it.


    If thinking about that minor concept works for you then that's great.
    But it's just another way to think about what is really an often used scale.
    The 7th degree of the melodic minor scale.


    Actually just thinking about this a bit further.
    Take a C9.
    Pat would play his Gminor. Of course it will work. All the notes of C9 are in the Gminor conversion. It's just Fmajor scale and you can burn away on it.
    But now let's make that a C7b9b13
    Suddenly your minor conversion isn't sounding so good. You're really going to have to hit that b9 and b13 and probably be careful about how you use the A and the D notes from your Gminor scale.
    But here's my point. When Pat hit's one of those chords I don't hear any of his minor licks.....and believe me I know them all. He immediately plays a different set of licks and they are melodic minor or Super Lochrian based.

    I made a tape of all his Altered Dominant licks and put them all in one key and in the same position. There is a definite pattern and it follows the chord tones closely.

    This is not the case with minor or major chords. With those, Pat is free to run all his minor licks and he does so.
    Last edited by Philco; 05-23-2012 at 06:50 AM.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco


    If you use the minor concept over altered notes there are to many "wrong" notes and it tends to sound vague and not focused.
    When Pat plays over Altered Dominants on his records he always nails the notes in the chord. There are not that many passing notes. He always sounds focused on the chord.
    When he plays the minor conversion concept over altered chords in his video it sounds wrong to me. It's just all over the place and not focused.
    You can use strictly dorian with altered dominant (no melodic minor ... no superlocrian).

    Many greats musicians uses dorian over an altered chord and Pat do the same. It's quite normal no exoteric ... if you resolve the lick properly ...

  12. #36

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    I've studied Pats approach in depth and it is indeed as he says: totally irrelevant to chord scales although it can be analyzed as such.
    The clue is to get a rock solid language for the minor seventh. Lines that work and generate momentum. Then, the diminished chord that's the upper structure of the dom7b9 shows you the roots for minors to substitute over that dominant seventh.

    The 7b9 is arrived upon by raising the root of a vanilla dominant chord to get the diminished voicing. That chord is nothing more than a collection of four roots for minor lines which to substitute over that dominant chord. If II and V of a II-V are equal, then it must hold true that we can use these same substitutions for a functional II chord. The relative minor concept is used for substituting for major chords, VI for I. And for half diminished chords, Pat thinks of the minor seventh that can be built from the third of that chord. Example: F minor as a substitution for Dm7b5.

    I think another reason why he doesn't use modal nomenclature is because his minor lines can draw intervals from all the minor scales at once due to use of passing tones, or simply because the line demanded so. Myself, I've found no need to differentiate between them either but rather use the minor seventh as a family of their own. I find it is more comfortable to change the different intervals than to think of different scales, and studying Pats approach has only reinforced my belief in that idea.

  13. #37

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    As I said, if it works for you then....great.
    That's a spacey arrangement. If you play any notes fast enough and resolve them then it will work.
    Nebulous playing would work over that kind of spacey vibe.

    It's jazz. The concept is that there are no rigid rules.
    Everyman for himself so to speak.
    For every player who comes up with a theory or concept there will be others to say that it's not quite right for them or that it's just another way of saying the same thing.
    We tend to see things from different angles and form our own little rules.
    That's a good way for it to be I think.

    Pat's concept clearly works for him.....big time!

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
    Then, the diminished chord that's the upper structure of the dom7b9 shows you the roots for minors to substitute over that dominant seventh.
    This is too cool... thanks! Dorian or Melodic? Either/both?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
    And for half diminished chords, Pat thinks of the minor seventh that can be built from the third of that chord. Example: F minor as a substitution for Dm7b5.
    This is great! I see how F Dorian is diatonic, thus a little more 'inside'. I've been using F melodic minor (or sometimes AbMaj) over Dm7b5. I'm still trying to organize my thinking on subs so this thread is helpful.
    - jw
    Last edited by AlohaJoe; 05-29-2012 at 04:58 AM.

  15. #39

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    I totally agree with Philco.

    Every time (in intervals of 3 or 4 months) I take Pat's book from my shelf to give his lines a chance to be integrated in my playing on jazz standards, full of functional progressions, but every time I put back the book in the shelf with no success .

    His theory is well grasped in modal progressions, in fact if you see the tune Nadine in his Linear Expressions work is very modal, with long part of the progression based on just one chord.

    When it comes to play over functional dominant chord, his minor substitution concept is hard to use.

    The best place where Pat explains how to adapt its minor conversion concept to functional altered dominant chord is in his "Creative Force" video, where he uses a minor dorian sound built a semitone away from the root of the dominant chord (e.g. Abm dorian over G Altered).

    BUT the lines that come out are not very pleasant to my hear, because the 7th of the minor chord is the MAJOR 7th of the dominant chord, a really bad choice.

    Actually, LES WISE uses Abm/Maj7 arpeggio over G7 Altered, but this is very different from the minor substitution used by PAT, as Abm/Maj7 arpeggio is actually taken from the Ab melodic minor scale, which is used over G7 Altered to create an altered sound (superlocrian scale).

    Sorry to have replied to this thread so late, but I just discovered it while searching over internet a workable solution for applying the minor conversion concept of PAT on my last attempt to use it over functional chord progression.