Interesting Scofield minor II V I

[kris]

Great example of John Scofield playing style.
I transcribed it from Scof solo on Stella chords/ On Improvisation/.

[dyross]

You say minor II V I in the title but the pdf has a Bb7M (which is what?). I also don't see any Db's over Bb.

[docbop]

The chord symbols are all weird Cm7/5- and Bb7M ?????

The pdf says 251 not major or minor and as you point out no b3rd's. Also key sig is for Bb major not minor.

So confusing pdf.

[kris]

Yes...
It is not minor lick. I did mistake.
First chord is Cm7b5 like in minor progression,second is Dominat F7 and next major Bbmaj7 /Key of Stella/.
This cm7b5 sugest minor II V I.
May be John think with more substitute :C#m7 F#7/ cm7 F7/ Bbmaj7/Bbmaj7/
Sorry
Kris
ps.
I Know that frist chord in major II V I is regulary minor....
It s better to title this "Last four bars of Stella ."

[kris]

ORGINALY:
Cm7b5 / F7b9 / Bbmaj7/ Bbmaj7/.
how to name this progresion?

Last 4 bars of "Stella By Starlight" from REAL Book.

[docbop]

Originally Posted by kris

ORGINALY:
Cm7b5 / F7b9 / Bbmaj7/ Bbmaj7/.
how to name this progresion?

Last 4 bars of "Stella By Starlight" from REAL Book.

Fred is a nice name. I don't know if there's would be a name for that. Could look at it as borrowing from Cmi ( Parallel Minor) for the ii . The an V7alt could say Cmi again or being its a resolving dominant altering it is cool; coin toss. Then resolving to I major. One of the Music Lawyers probably can dig up an official name, but Fred sounds good to me.


Where's Cosmic Gumbo we need a ruling here.

[oilywrag]

Music Lawyers..I just love that phrase

Tom


Fred does sound good

[Dark Star]

I'm not a music lawyer but I usually use the common symbols "∆" for major & "-" for minor.

[kris]

I'm not a music lawyer but I usually use the common symbols "∆" for major & "-" for minor.


Thi is not a problem.

[Banksia]

Originally Posted by Dark Star

I'm not a music lawyer but I usually use the common symbols "∆" for major & "-" for minor.

I don't see the point in using symbols which aren't sitting there on the keyboard. I prefer Maj, Ma7, or even M7 and min, mi, or m. It shouldn't be confusing since, in jazz particularly, we already use I, IV to mean Major and ii and vi to mean minor.

I also think Cm7b5 - F7b9 - BbM7 is just a 2-5-1. (If we're in Bb, of course)

[kris]

2 5 1
it is OK...but how can we know is it in minor or major?
cm7/ F7/ Bb maj7--this is major 251
cm7b5/ F7b9/Bbm--this is minor 251

cm7/F7/ Bbm...what is this?
May be jazz language is not perfect?

[Banksia]

Even if you are in Bb Minor Key, the C min is still your 2 or ii, and the F7 is still your 5 or V7, the only difference is Bbm is a i, not a I.

So:
In Bb Major: 2-5-1 or ii-V-I
In Bb Minor: 2-5-1 or ii-V-i

The change Cm7b5 - F7b9 works quite well to resolve to Bbm. The b5 in your Cmin - Gb - is part of the Bbm Harmonic Minor scale.

[kris]

so.....

ii V i----sugest that ii = minor with b5 ?

[Dark Star]

Originally Posted by Banksia

I don't see the point in using symbols which aren't sitting there on the keyboard. I prefer Maj, Ma7, or even M7 and min, mi, or m. It shouldn't be confusing since, in jazz particularly, we already use I, IV to mean Major and ii and vi to mean minor.

I first started using these symbols when writing them out by hand & not using a keyboard. It's much easier to fit Bb∆13 into a small space than Bbmaj13. BbM13, particularly when writing small to begin with, could be confused w/Bbm13.
The guy I picked it up from was an instructor at GIT & a student of Ted Greene, so I suspect that it's more common among jazz musicians than you might think.
As to the use of large & small case roman numerals, I'm with you on that. But I've seen folks here argue about that kind of notation, too-
lol

[kris]

By the way....
anybody practise this line I transcribed?

[docbop]

Originally Posted by Dark Star

I'm not a music lawyer but I usually use the common symbols "∆" for major & "-" for minor.

That's fine I use those too unless on a computer then I will start expanding. But I went to two different music schools and the one old school Jazzer's hated the triangle for Maj7 and dash for minor and other used it all the time. The problem is there is no standard for symbols it is very regional.

What threw me with the OP symbols he was putting the dash and M after instead of before. I've never seen that anywhere before.

[kris]

symbols...?
You have to creat music in your heart...

[Banksia]

Originally Posted by kris

so.....

ii V i----sugest that ii = minor with b5 ?

No, ii doesn't have to mean a min7b5. "ii" simply means a chord whose root note is the 2nd in your scale and, because it is written in lower case - "ii" instead of "II" - it is built on a minor third interval - in this case C-Eb.

2-5-1 is just an abbreviation for a common progression. The progression might be: Am7(69)-D7b9#5-Gmaj7#11, but it is still a 2-5-1.

[kris]

back to the:
cm7b5/F7b9/Bbmaj7....it is major 2 5 1 because last chord -tonic is major.

[Banksia]

Originally Posted by kris

back to the:
cm7b5/F7b9/Bbmaj7....it is major 2 5 1 because last chord -tonic is major.

I've never heard anyone call it a major 2-5-1 or a minor 2-5-1. They are all just 2-5-1s.

You might call it a 2-5-1 in Bb Minor but it is still just a 2-5-1

[kris]

"Almost any II -V7-I patterns used for major keys can be altered to conform to the II-V7-I in Minor keys which becomes II chord usually a half-diminished chord/scale.''
"II-V-I in major and in minor"
THE II V7 I Progression J.AEBERSOLD vol.3




'

[docbop]

Originally Posted by Banksia

I've never heard anyone call it a major 2-5-1 or a minor 2-5-1. They are all just 2-5-1s.

You might call it a 2-5-1 in Bb Minor but it is still just a 2-5-1

Your thinking root movement only, but key and melody do come into play. It is very normal to say a minor II-V or major II-V it's just add detail to the description.

Same with this were minor-ish II-V is resolving to I major is there a name for that I don't know, but on the bandstand I'd be listening to the melody to decide how to treat it. When in doubt go with the ear.