Linear harmony over turnarounds (specifically iii7 - VI7 going to ii7)

[dyross]

Hey all,

Sorry if this has been discussed before - I've actually seen a related thread about comping but figured this warranted a new one.

I'm curious about the different schools of thought of the harmony for lines over the iii7 - VI7 going to ii7 in typical turnarounds. I realize the VI7 is pretty open in what you can play (7b9, different 7alt's etc.) but I'm curious about the iii7 chord. The following 3 options seem to "make sense" but I'm curious which is the preferred / best / etc.:

1) Diatonic approach, treat iii7 as the third mode in major, play Phrygian b9, b6 etc.

2) Treat ii7 as a temporary target tonal center and treat it as a typical minor ii - V - i, playing half diminished over the iii7.

3) Play Dorian over the iii7 to get symmetry with the Dorian over the ii7.


These three approaches seem the most obvious to me, but perhaps I have missed some (or at least variations of them). Any thoughts?

[rlemos]

Hi dyross. I think this is a very good thread topic. Here is my pentatonic approach (based on my book) for dealing with the iiim7 chord, especially in a turnaround (e.g.: Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7)

-First choice: E Minor Pentatonic Scale. This always works well in this progression.

-Second choice: C Ionian Pentatonic Scale (see my YouTube video on this scale). Essentially, pretend the Em7 is a Cmaj7.

In my book I show 4 additional pentatonic choices including 2 additional substitute pentatonic scales and 2 reharmonized pentatonic scales.

Of course there are other possible "solutions". I am only describing the approach that I take in my "system". Try them all out and see what works best for you.

Ron

[JonnyPac]

I love you guys right now. I have been dealing with that same question for frickin' years, and no one admit that there is a real problem here to work out. Let's pwn this beezy.

My 1st choice is Em Pentatonic as well. Phrygian is a little rough though it is in key. For the record, Bird used the diatonic Phrygian to A7b9 usually. Phrygian works if the notes are de-emphasized; if they are on the back end of eigth notes they slip in. Bill Evans avoids the b2 and b6 in many cases.

The jazz Theory Book says to use the Em Dorian, but I don't dig it there. Em Dorian to an A7 Alt or D HM scale sounds pretty bad to me. Em7b5 to A7b9 makes sense, but the charts clearly want a natural 5th on the Em7.

Treating it as a rootless I Cmaj9 chord makes sense too. That's probably the original chord anyway. If you outline a Cmaj9 it will just sound like the I chord with the 3rd in the bass; totally legal, IMHO. This is my 2nd choice.

I would not use C Maj Pentatonic. Overdoing the root C is not in my style. I prefer the notes in Em Pentatonic over Cmaj chords any day.

You dig?

[dyross]

Originally Posted by rlemos

Hi dyross. I think this is a very good thread topic. Here is my pentatonic approach (based on my book) for dealing with the iiim7 chord, especially in a turnaround (e.g.: Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7)

-First choice: E Minor Pentatonic Scale. This always works well in this progression.

-Second choice: C Ionian Pentatonic Scale (see my YouTube video on this scale). Essentially, pretend the Em7 is a Cmaj7.

In my book I show 4 additional pentatonic choices including 2 additional substitute pentatonic scales and 2 reharmonized pentatonic scales.

Of course there are other possible "solutions". I am only describing the approach that I take in my "system". Try them all out and see what works best for you.

Ron

E minor pentatonic seems to conveniently miss the questionable notes from my choices above (except it has a perfect 5, so half diminished is out). Definitely seems to make sense, but I wonder how it colors and adds movement to the progression. I'd be interested to hear it in action.

C major pentatonic seems to me a little bit too static, but again, I'm sure it can be done right.

Staying with pentatonics, if you think of E as Dorian, you can play F# minor pentatonic and get a cool m9 and m13 sound over the E.

[JonnyPac]

Bird:



-----------------6--5----------------------4--3---------
-8--6--5---------------8--6--5--------------------6--5-
----------7--6-------------------7--5--4----------------
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------

[rlemos]

Hi Everybody, I can't resist throwing in some more "pentatonic tricks" for this progression (Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7):

-Use the C Major Pentatonic Scale (aka A Minor Pentatonic Scale) for the whole progression. This works particularly well at fast tempos where it is too difficult to navigate the changes. You really can't go wrong with this approach. Use a repeating 4-note pattern on any of the notes. Do ascending or descending runs. Do your standard blues patterns. Play one note per chord. Sustain the note G over the entire progression, etc.

-Use the C Major Pentatonic Scale over the Em7 and Am7. Now use the C Minor Pentatonic Scale over the Dm7 and G7. Now you are getting funky!

Remember, try these ideas at a fast tempo. Also, imagine yourself as George Benson. Your friends will be impressed.

There are many more cool pentatonic possibilities. I could write a book on them (wait a minute--I did!).

The only way to see what works best for you is to try these and other ideas. I am only sharing what works for me in a gigging situation.

Ron

[JonnyPac]

Hi Ron, you wanna trade books?

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Hi Ron, you wanna trade books?

Hi Jonny, Thank you so much! Unfortunately, I only have my copy left. Your book looks really good and I have put it on my "to buy" list. Also, I checked out your YouTube videos. I really enjoyed your music. Great playing with your trio and your lessons. I especially liked your playing on "Uphill". This forum is so useful for connecting with other musicians who are so gracious in sharing their knowledge with all of us.

[JonnyPac]

Ok Ron, just email me when you want one. I work at a guitar store and we are HL dealer. I'll get a copy of yours through there and perhaps stock them too.

That's really kind of you to look at my stuff! It is a little rough as you can tell, but down the road I'll have something polished. Hopefully a CD. Thanks for sharing too. I look forward to your posts. Best wishes!

[dyross]

Back to the topic at hand...

I'm curious mostly about the thoughts on the iii7 in a progression like:

Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 C

Specifically, what are the thoughts on the 9th's and 13th's over this chord? Major or minor or both or neither?

[JonnyPac]

I think you hit it dead on.

Omission, Reharm as ii, or just leave 'em. The answer is YES to all. Choose what you like; that's all anyone really does. I've looked into it many times.

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by dyross

Back to the topic at hand...

I'm curious mostly about the thoughts on the iii7 in a progression like:

Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 C

Specifically, what are the thoughts on the 9th's and 13th's over this chord? Major or minor or both or neither?

Hi, in the context of this progression, the Em7 is a phrygian minor (third step of the C major harmonized scale). This quality/sound/color is defined by the b9th (F) and b13th (C). However, to my ears, neither note is one you would want to hang on. That is why I suggested the E Minor Pentatonic Scale that avoids these notes and focuses on the notes that always sound "correct" (1 b3 4 5 b7). If I used the C note it would be as an approach note to the C# note in the following A7 chord. However, as stated by many people, let your ear be your guide. What sounds "good" to you? That is the most important thing.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I guess I like my turn arounds to sound like I've got my turn signal on and am "turning". If you honk "C" on Emin7, it sounds like you're resolving, not revolving!

It's straightforward, but I do like:

Emin7 - E dorian (key of D)
A7 - A mixo (key of D)
Dmin7 - D dorian (key of C)
G7 - (key of C)

The feel is you go up a whole step then come back down. Speed bump? There's no need to avoid F# or C# over Emin7 -- both sound good.

An alternative is to tweak the chords a little for more of a minor sound in the first two chords: Emin7b5 A7(b9, b13). If that b5 clashed with a melody note, you could keep the original chords over the head. This is a common thing to do. Then you can play D harmonic minor over those two chords, for example.

[dyross]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I guess I like my turn arounds to sound like I've got my turn signal on and am "turning". If you honk "C" on Emin7, it sounds like you're resolving, not revolving!

It's straightforward, but I do like:

Emin7 - E dorian (key of D)
A7 - A mixo (key of D)
Dmin7 - D dorian (key of C)
G7 - (key of C)

The feel is you go up a whole step then come back down. Speed bump? There's no need to avoid F# or C# over Emin7 -- both sound good.

An alternative is to tweak the chords a little for more of a minor sound in the first two chords: Emin7b5 A7(b9, b13). If that b5 clashed with a melody note, you could keep the original chords over the head. This is a common thing to do. Then you can play D harmonic minor over those two chords, for example.

I love this answer, and I think it captures what I wanted to but failed to stress:

I'm thinking about turnarounds specifically, when we want to sound like where going back to where we came from. I'm not just asking "How can I make it over this progression?" but more "How can I effectively communicate the harmonic direction?"

Thanks for the info, BDLH. You seem to like both of those situations - I guess it's a matter of taste on which is brighter / darker etc.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

If you honk "C" on Emin7, it sounds like you're resolving, not revolving!

Nice.

In terms of turnaround, that's about 2 beats per chord. Some of you are talking frour chord scales. Overkill?

[dyross]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Nice.

In terms of turnaround, that's about 2 beats per chord. Some of you are talking frour chord scales. Overkill?

I guess the answer depends pretty heavily on that question - since this is a discussion forum let's think about both varieties!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

In terms of turnaround, that's about 2 beats per chord. Some of you are talking frour chord scales. Overkill?

Likely. Note that in my two examples, I use the same set of notes over both chords (D major in first example, D harmonic minor in second example).

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Likely. Note that in my two examples, I use the same set of notes over both chords

My bad.