Pat Martino minor scale thinking

[kris]

Two nice minor lines/e-minor/ over A7#5 dominant.
You can transpose them to Bb minor,G minor Db minor to creat substitution over A7#5 dominant chord.
Best
Kris

[mr. beaumont]

There's a couple of youtube vids where he demonstrates this.

I'll be honest--some of them don't work for "melodic" playing, but for burning--damn hip.

[kris]

If you do not like conception of Pat you can use it as a normal e-minor line over Em7,Gmaj7 or A7...it is great jazz line.
I play that staff only as a good exercise.

[mr. beaumont]

no kris, you miss what I'm saying--it's a very cool approach, but many of the examples contain some "handle with care" notes (like a maj7 on a dominant chord) that sound just fine when you're blowing but they're not somewhere you'd like to land if doing something more slow and melodic.

In other words, it appears on the surface as a way of simplifying, but it's not beginner stuff IMHO.

[Aristotle]

I am glad you started this. I could never quite crack Martino's code.

Except the line uses the chormaticism of going F#, F-nat, E-natural, every note is from key of D (or A-Mixo or E-Dorian, etc).
I don't see the Em "thinking" in the lines, which seem to outline A7.

Another general problem I have understanding Martino's comments is that when I think in terms of minor...which minor? If the harmony is C6, 69 or maj7, that would be one kind of Am (aeolian), but another kind of Em (phygian).

[Aristotle]

Here is the tube with the successive Em, Bbm, Gm, Dbm lines

YouTube Video

[mr. beaumont]

Dorian conversion, for the most part.

You can start getting at these sounds just by using m7 arpeggios. "Minor" as an entity, not as a prescribed set of notes.

[M-ster]

I don't think these are necessarily A+7 lines. Especially out of context, they are very vanilla mixolydian sounding, with a few chromatic passing tones. Granted, if you move them around in minor 3rds, you get more varied tension over A7. (And, now that Aristotle posted the vid', I hear he's demonstrating that line over A+7 ... but still, when you analyze, I think my comment holds true.)

But, this is a straight-up example of playing minor a 5th away from the dom 7 root. Pat's thing, as he describes it, is either playing off the minor up a 5th (for mixo and lyd b7 sounds) or up a half-step (for altered sounds).

My perception is that he's not taking a hard-core theorist approach to "which minor." Rather, he's accommodating b6, nat 6, b7, and nat 7 more by ear and instinct as they fit his lines.

Thanks for transcribing and posting, kris!

[Aristotle]

I found a transcription for the vid

[kris]

I did my transcription also from this video...:-)
just only e-minor scale.

[Aristotle]

Looked over the transcriptions. I wonder if a computer did this. It only has sharps. Bb min written as A# min gave me a headache. Db min written as C# min was an improvement over having to think Fb.

Beau and MSter are right. Em, for example, means E-Dor or plain-vanilla A-Mixo. Most of the chomatics are the passing tone between E and F#. (Same for other subs).

The lines appear to reflect thinking like it's the sub-chord. For example, he pretty much runs th E minor scale twice, and then puts in a few skips. The only other thing of significance I see, is that on the three that aren't Em, he ends on the A-note. Maybe that's for instructional purposes, or do we reallyl need to be pulled back to the root harmony.

So, why does this work so well, ie sound so good when HE plays it, and not when I do. I think part of it is accents and phrasing. Even though it is a steady run of notes, he marks peaks and valleys, and other turns in the melody to make it interesting? He's got some staccato in places as well. And the other part is I am not up to tempo?

[markerhodes]

I had a teacher many moons ago who had me learn the five long lines from Pat's book "Linear Expressions" as an intro to the "convert to minor" system. I still play the lines now and then, but mainly for practice. They look a lot like pdf here. I'm with Mr. Beaumont in that they are better for "burning" than for use in slower, melodic contexts. After much exposure to Pat's playing, I can honestly say I admire his ability and like some of his records but I don't want to sound or play the way he does.

[docbop]

Have to remember how someone thinks doesn't always make sense to someone else all this is how Pat viewed these things at that time. I went to GIT back when Pat was teaching there, and he was a deep thinker, but some of the stuff he would say was really strange, I mean REALLY STRANGE. Now to be fair to Pat this was just before it was discovered about his brain tumor so that was affecting him.

So I say if you like what Pat's playing transcribe it or get a transcription learn it, study it, and find your own ways to label it so you can use it in the future.

[kris]

Yes.... but Pat Martino is one of the best jazz guitarists of our times!!!
And... I like his playing and sound very much.
He wrote good educational materials-books for advanced players.
Who will play like him? it is impossible.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

I found a transcription for the vid

Thanks, Aristotle.

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by kris

Yes.... but Pat Martino is one of the best jazz guitarists of our times!!!

That may be true. I still don't care for his tone or way of playing. He's been around a long time and gone through changes. I like some of his stuff--and I respect much of what I don't like--but his guitar tone is such that when I hear it I want the guitar to *stop.* Like some singers have a voice that bugs you, even though they may be good singers, his tone bugs me. I'm not saying he's bad at all, or that my taste should set the standard. But I will admit I am amazed that anyone likes the sound of the guitar in that clip. He's the sort of player Miles would've sent to "Notes Anonymous."

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

... -but his guitar tone is such that when I hear it I want the guitar to *stop.* ... I will admit I am amazed that anyone likes the sound of the guitar in that clip.

Ha! Um, well, I like it, for one. But, it is rather dark and blunt. I don't think it's important for all of us to like or dislike the same things, though.

[Aristotle]

BTW, I did find a Martino booklet in my library - Linear Expressions.

FWIW Beaumont, Martino's booklet seems to be treating the "think minor" as relative minor (aeolian) at first, using Gm for Bb. Except that the melody samples consistently use E-nat instead of E-flat. So, they are Dorian. (Unless, he really means this to go over a Bb, and thus be Lydian). This is why I say, I can't crack this guy's code. IMO, he is a bad a teacher as he is a good player.

Some said these substitution ideas are more for "burning." OK, but if you think they work, why do they work? Is it that the ear just gets caught up following the relatively straight root-emphsizing Bb min or Db min line that makes sense because of its own internal gravity (and perhaps because of how busy it is), and the ear is distracted from the "inconsistencies" with the underlying A7 harmonyy)?

Originally Posted by markerhodes

his tone bugs me...
He's the sort of player Miles would've sent to "Notes Anonymous."

Criticism of Martino is rare. I'd like understand you better. Is it his tone or his notes or both?

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Ha! Um, well, I like it, for one. But, it is rather dark and blunt. I don't think it's important for all of us to like or dislike the same things, though.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure you do. I'm fine with that. My tastes are just that. But I think Martino's tone--especially when playing That Guitar--is almost everything a classic jazz tone is NOT. (Of course, some people don't care for a classic jazz tone. Indeed, as a kid I didn't; it took me a long time to warm up to that sound, which I now prefer to all other guitar sounds.) "Dark and blunt" is a great description of it. I prefer "warm and singing."

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Criticism of Martino is rare. I'd like understand you better. Is it his tone or his notes or both?

I definitely dislike his tone, especially on the guitar in the clip above. Someone here described it as "dark and blunt" and that sounds right to me. I don't care for that tone. And I think he plays way too many notes, too few of which sing. (I'm not against fast playing, but I like playing that sings. Coltrane sang, Parker sang, Wes sang, Herb sang---Pat doesn't sing. At least to my ears. MOST of the time--I've heard some of his stuff that I really liked, but overall, I don't like his tone and don't care to learn his solos.)

[kris]

[quote=markerhodes;117917]I definitely dislike his tone, especially on the guitar in the clip above. Someone here described it as "dark and blunt" and that sounds right to me. I don't care for that tone. And I think he plays way too many notes, too few of which sing. (I'm not against fast playing, but I like playing that sings. Coltrane sang, Parker sang, Wes sang, Herb sang---Pat doesn't sing. At least to my ears. MOST of the time--I've heard some of his stuff that I really liked, but overall, I don't like his tone and don't care to learn his solos

"One of the important guitarists of our time is Pat Martino.He uses his masterfull technique with exeptional melodic sense."Linear Expressions" now offers guitarists everywhere the oportunity to share in Pat's insights to improvising."
-HERB ELLIS

[docbop]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

That may be true. I still don't care for his tone or way of playing. He's been around a long time and gone through changes. I like some of his stuff--and I respect much of what I don't like--but his guitar tone is such that when I hear it I want the guitar to *stop.* Like some singers have a voice that bugs you, even though they may be good singers, his tone bugs me. I'm not saying he's bad at all, or that my taste should set the standard. But I will admit I am amazed that anyone likes the sound of the guitar in that clip. He's the sort of player Miles would've sent to "Notes Anonymous."

We'll pray for you.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Some said these substitution ideas are more for "burning." OK, but if you think they work, why do they work?

They seem to work the best to me over a point of tension, like this A7#5--or over some other altered dominant sounds in another video.

It also seems to me that the minor subs he uses for non-dominant chords (major and yes, minor for minor) are a good deal more "safe" than these. It's more of the "not how you fly the plane, but how you land."

What's nice about playing "out" like this is there's precedent in your mind and in your synapses, so it's easier to get back "in."

[dyross]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

I definitely dislike his tone, especially on the guitar in the clip above. Someone here described it as "dark and blunt" and that sounds right to me. I don't care for that tone. And I think he plays way too many notes, too few of which sing. (I'm not against fast playing, but I like playing that sings. Coltrane sang, Parker sang, Wes sang, Herb sang---Pat doesn't sing. At least to my ears. MOST of the time--I've heard some of his stuff that I really liked, but overall, I don't like his tone and don't care to learn his solos.)

I have several Martino records and really like them. He has incredible technique and I think he is a master of building tension through repetition and melodic development. However...

I saw him a little while back with his organ trio plus a tenor and I have to admit, I was bored. The concert was billed as a b3 summit - Larry Goldings' organ trio (with Bill Stewart and Peter Bernstein) played first and they put on a great show, with interesting songs and great dynamics. Then for Martino's combo, it felt like they played burning bop after burning bop tune and none of the solos or lines were memorable. I was disappointed, for sure.

It's clear to me that Martino's passion is linear expression (heck he named his book this). He wants to tell the listener as much as he can about the harmony of the tune and where it's going with his lines and to some listeners (including me, sometimes) this lacks a certain lyricism that we love in the playing of Miles, Bill Evans, Jim Hall.

[dyross]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

I definitely dislike his tone, especially on the guitar in the clip above. Someone here described it as "dark and blunt" and that sounds right to me. I don't care for that tone. And I think he plays way too many notes, too few of which sing. (I'm not against fast playing, but I like playing that sings. Coltrane sang, Parker sang, Wes sang, Herb sang---Pat doesn't sing. At least to my ears. MOST of the time--I've heard some of his stuff that I really liked, but overall, I don't like his tone and don't care to learn his solos.)

Perhaps you will enjoy the tone / playing more in this recording:

YouTube Video

[docbop]

Pat Martino was recent asked a similar question on minor conversion over on his thread on another site. It's a Cool thread that Pat posts to when not on the road.

Pat Martino - Jazz Bulletin Board

[kris]

Thank you DocBop

Kris

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by docbop

Pat Martino was recent asked a similar question on minor conversion over on his thread on another site. It's a Cool thread that Pat posts to when not on the road.

Pat Martino - Jazz Bulletin Board

Yeah, docbop - I was following that thread along for a great while. Very interesting and almost amazing that Pat is willing to spend time online with the public like that.

This post led to my comments about Pat being into "the geometry of the guitar" in another Pat-related thread on this site.

It's almost like he got out his Spirograph and had at it!

[M-ster]

If anyone's interested, I just posted some of my own homework (inspired by this thread), over here: http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...tml#post118907

[Aristotle]

Interested, appreciative.