improvisations

[mikerbooks]

is it often, as i am hearing, that the improvisation sections in jazz are are basically over one or two chords. does the band then signal to each other when the solo is over?

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by mikerbooks

is it often, as i am hearing, that the improvisation sections in jazz are are basically over one or two chords. does the band then signal to each other when the solo is over?

This is part of the band dynamics. When soloists are 'trading,' they may signal to each other as you say, and it is very common for one player to indicate that he is taking over from another by playing a 'pickup,' which is why there is often a kind of crossover, two soloists at the same time, during bars 31 and 32, say. Otherwise, bands generally have a leader, and when it isn't clear when a solo is going to end (which happens all the time with drum solos), it's common for the leader to take the band back in, with gestures, foot-stamping the beat or even counting it out loud, marking the beat in some other way (a trumpeter may move his horn like a conductor's baton, even with it in his mouth, down for 'one,' sideways for 'two' and 'three,' etc.) by playing a 'pickup' into the tune, or a combination of these. It does seem like magic, sometimes, even when you've done it hundreds of times, but it's just knowing what to expect, really.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by mikerbooks

is it often, as i am hearing, that the improvisation sections in jazz are are basically over one or two chords. does the band then signal to each other when the solo is over?

Often a nod is enough to signal. Horn players might take a step back.

On recordings in a studio, someone might say "I'm gonna take 32 bars" or whatever. Live, you look for cues.

I would not say that it is "often" that the improv section in a jazz tune is over one or two chords--what have you been listening to?

[ksjazzguitar]

Yeah,

I''m not sure what you are getting at, there are some songs where the solo sections are just a one or two chord vamp. "Take Five" is a good example. Some songs are sometimes done this way, like "Afro Blue" or "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy."

The solo sections in this case is usually just a 1-4 bar open vamp. Yes, they could use a visual head nod to cue that the solo is over. But really, good musicians are listening and a they can hear when a good soloist is wrapping up his solo. Also, in some case of the open vamp ends with some specific melodic material that ends the solo - sometimes "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" is played this way. "A Night in Tunisia" is not really this "open vamp" type solo, but people sometimes signal the end of their solo with the interlude.

I'm not disagreeing with the other posters, just interpreting your question in a different way. Like Beaumont said, if you can let us know specifically what song you are talking about, we might be able to give you a more specific answer.

Peace,
Kevin

[Reg]

Hey Mikerbooks... I'm with the others... but I always look for sections of tunes, two chords or however many... just a section that can groove and give the tune a break... it gets pretty boring playing forms over and over, even with interludes. Depending on band and what the gig is...I call out groove sections or Interludes at gigs all the time, there are always sections of tunes which most want to hear... usually really gets audiences into the whole thing... and as Kevin was saying... you either cue verbally, or musically. I actually conduct back into form if need be... Hope helps Reg

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Reg

... but I always look for sections of tunes, two chords or however many... just a section that can groove and give the tune a break...

That's an interesting idea, looking for little vamp sections to break up the monotony of 32 bars repeated ad nauseum. Having a little unexpected break down and vamp in the middle of a tune - it makes sense. It's a good way to personalize tunes too - one of my beefs with jazz in general is that we all do the same tunes, the same way.

Peace,
Kevin

[JonnyPac]

I enjoy soloing on vamps or alternate "blowing changes". Sometimes heads have deathly changes as is. Pent-up House (Rollins) is a song with simple blowing changes compared to the fast head chords. I write these sections into my original tunes if the heads are overcomplicated in a frustrating way.

In other cases the heads of songs are simple melodies that go over chop-building changes. Tune-Up and Giant Steps are good examples.

I like both. Communicating with your players verbally or visually is all it takes to be sure the performance has no train wrecks.

[mikerbooks]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I would not say that it is "often" that the improv section in a jazz tune is over one or two chords--what have you been listening to?

thanks mr beaumont - this is very nice and seems to be moving somewhere i recognise! now i listen to 'a go-go' by john scofield which i understand is funk, but really its all the same to me!!! this music i'm very imnpressed by. pardon me if you dont like i'm just trying to get a handle on "playing over changes" etc which in fact frightens the life out of me! i should say when music i've been playing (band-wise) has got hold of me and really 'grooved' is when i've actually felt divorced from the chains beneath me so to speak - i mean there's been a kind of flying feeling and, actually the point of this thread, still all hung together with whatever anybody else was doing. and there's been no time in there when i was thinking c minor seven - 2,3 - E,A and the like.
i understand john scofield is a great player and can make things sound very easy, but how do people create 'loose' over strict structures below?
or are they not strict at all! hope this hasnt bored you. but it does seem a lot of things turn on it.

[mikerbooks]

[quote=JonnyPac;116880]I enjoy soloing on vamps or alternate "blowing changes". Sometimes heads have deathly changes as is. thats lovely heads have deathly changes - what does that mean?

[orasnon]

Perhaps the OP means one or two "choruses" rather than "chords"??

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by orasnon

Perhaps the OP means one or two "choruses" rather than "chords"??

Yeah, I think that that was kinda covered by the first couple responses. I just wanted to cover the possibility that he was talking about solos over an open vamp - it was hard to tell exactly what he was after.

Peace,
Kevin

[mikerbooks]

exactly what he was after.

Peace,
Kevin[/quote]

my query was, am i right in thinking jazz soloing is not the same as say 12 bar blues where your keeping to the 12 bars pattern underneath? and that this one or two chord vamp you speak of is why one has the impression everybody's adrift (though of course listening and responding) and able to possibly do whatever...

[mr. beaumont]

No, most jazz soloing is over the form of the tune-- the player just doesn't stay in one key because he's following the changes. That's jazz.

The vamps and stuff happen too, definitely in the funky stuff. but the simplest way to describe what's going on in a jazz tune is a melody, followed by solos thataddress the chord changes of the song.

[ksjazzguitar]

What he said.

[mikerbooks]

thanks