Stacking triads question (Modal Jam)

[merseybeat]

I sometimes hear cats stacking, what seems to me anyway, random triads to create long flowing really cool lines! Is there any system for this technique?

Say I am in playing over a modal type thing in Gm, (and for now ignoring the common Dorian triads that belong!) So I start with a Gm triad! Any suggestions of stacking from here?

Its something I have been searching long and hard for but even the YouTube postings are not that clear!

Beer for the best advice!

Eddie

[JonnyPac]

Use Gm and Am; or Bb and C triads for typical Dorian sounds. Also use Dm triads to get the Gm11 sound. This is pretty common in Bill Evans and Gil Evans, arrangements, etc. Also Debussy did this a lot. Using triads as partial upper-structures is a very tasty choice in many cases. Experiment with diatonic possibilities. Fourth stacks are great too. Hope that helps. Best wishes!

[randalljazz]

if you seriously want to make music with this approach, this will be the best money ever spent:



Amazon.com: Jazz Improvisation for Guitar: A Melodic Approach (9780634017728): Garrison Fewell: Books

[merseybeat]

Thanks guys!

RJ I already have this excellent book! I got through it some time ago! But what I'm after is some of those dissonant non sensible triad stacks that seem to float over the top of everything! Larry Carlton seems to use a lot of them!

Thanks again

Eddie

[bako]

George Garzone has created some material (a dvd, not cheap but I suspect worth it) that addresses this topic. There is a promo on Youtube and some great videos of his trio "The Fringe" to check out to see if it is in tune with what you are looking for.

Attached is something someone put together based on the accounts of some of his students.

2 possible ideas:

Take a simple tonal melody line and harmonize it with triads further from the key center.

Create a logical chord sequence that starts and ends in the tonality but passes through other tonal areas.
Then play off the superimposed progression as if it was really there.

Having some fun this morning against the Gm7 here are some voicings of Gm E A+

In 2 note groups (alternating up down)

GBb BG# AC# DBb BE FC# DG G#E FA (Bb)

In 3 note groups (alternating down up up)

GDBb BEG# C#FA BbGD EG#B FAC# DBbG G#BE AC#F (G)

The A+ is relatively stable to Gm7
The E is tonally more distant but transitions from Gm to A+

I think the real beauty of working this way is not just learning any one formula but in developing real dexterity combining the elements freely.

[M-ster]

I suggest you transcribe and analyze a Carlton passage where he's using the sounds you want to understand.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by bako

George Garzone has created some material (a dvd, not cheap but I suspect worth it) that addresses this topic. There is a promo on Youtube and some great videos of his trio "The Fringe" to check out to see if it is in tune with what you are looking for.

Attached is something someone put together based on the accounts of some of his students.

2 possible ideas:

Take a simple tonal melody line and harmonize it with triads further from the key center.

Create a logical chord sequence that starts and ends in the tonality but passes through other tonal areas.
Then play off the superimposed progression as if it was really there.

Having some fun this morning against the Gm7 here are some voicings of Gm E A+

In 2 note groups (alternating up down)

GBb BG# AC# DBb BE FC# DG G#E FA (Bb)

In 3 note groups (alternating down up up)

GDBb BEG# C#FA BbGD EG#B FAC# DBbG G#BE AC#F (G)

The A+ is relatively stable to Gm7
The E is tonally more distant but transitions from Gm to A+

I think the real beauty of working this way is not just learning any one formula but in developing real dexterity combining the elements freely.

Baku

Big thanks for the post and the PDF. Great stuff and the price was certainly right.

[keith]

I wanted to elaborate on Bako's comments. I have the Garzones DVD and it goes through his technique with a number of instruments ( he being a sax player ) of using triads and how to link the different forms. His rules for this are not complex but I think the real skill with it ( or beauty as Bako mentioned ) is understanding how they will interact with one another to give a you melodic line that doesn't just sound like triads linked together. Garzone himself comments on this in his DVD. It's a neat technique for enhancing your knowledge of triads ,their inversions and relationship to what's physically around them on the fretboard but the key is developing the melodic context with them.

Another guy that works with triads is Jerry Bergonzi ( another sax player! ) who has a whole series of instruction books which are very in depth but a recent one on Hexatonics ( scales generated of 2 triads ) that may address your questions. David Valdez has a blog ( once again another horn player ) that reviews this and another triad book that he had used before.

http://davidvaldez.blogspot.com/2007...exatonics.html

I have to say that I have learned more about melody from reading and listening to sax players than guitarists although I always need to translate it into guitar which has been helpful for me to understand the instrument.

[merseybeat]

OK I finally have the solution to the original question and thanks to all for your assistance!

Found this great clip

MA-002 • Larry Carlton Interview Masterclass

Now Larry talks about treating the Valt in this case a G13b9 (great chord) as a G#dim7 and therefore allowing Minor 3rd shifts (E G Bb Dd triads)

I also tend to treat Galt (say G7b13) as an Aug triad so I also include G aug B aug and Eb aug. So playing around with all the above I came up with this!




----------------------------------------------------------------
------5-3---------6-8---------8-6-------------9-12-------------
----4-----4-----7-----8-----7-----7-------10-------12----------
--6---------5-8---------9-9---------8-11--------------13-------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------11--------------
--------11-9-------------12----12-----------
-----10------10-------13---------12----resolve--
--12------------11-14-----------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------



This is exactly what I was after!

It fits over a G7 vamp great!
It also fits a D Dorian modal jam, an E Dorian modal jam and just about anywhere else you can throw that dom 7 in (as long as its brought home!)

Resolves to I (in this case Cmaj9 nicely too)

Hope someone else can get use out of it! possibilities are endless!

Eddie