Playing out

[Trueman68]

I am sure this topic has been covered on numerous occasions and suspect there is no simple answer. But how do i make my solos less dull?

Playing the changes, modes, triads and arps all sound too safe to me.

I am advised that the dominant, 5th chord is relatively unstable and should be targeted for tri-tone substituion and altered, symmetrical scale. etc. Which is also very well but the 5th chord usually passes quickly (half a bar, or one bar) so sounds rushed or contrived. There must be more...

Can anyone offer some advise on areas to explore a more satisfying, out sound. Thanks.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Trueman68

Playing the changes, modes, triads and arps all sound too safe to me.

Well, first for my Yoda-like response, which'll make you want to slap me, but it's honest.

Of course your playing sounds boring--you've made no allusion to how you're crafting a melodic line. That's what's interesting--running chord scales, arpeggios, or triads is gonna sound like, well, running chord-scales, arpeggios, or triads.

To go further...

Any dominant chord can be a candidate for a tritone sub. That's a fine place to start. The other thing to consider is, you can play just about anything when you play out--it's all about how you get back in--making that transition smooth.

A fun thing to try is to use visual patterns (disregarding note choice) over any point of tension and work on getting back in smoothly (An idea I gleaned from some Howard Roberts lesson material) In otherwords, not how you fly the plane but how you land.

[fefe]

Originally Posted by Trueman68

I am advised that the dominant, 5th chord is relatively unstable and should be targeted for tri-tone substituion and altered, symmetrical scale. etc. Which is also very well but the 5th chord usually passes quickly (half a bar, or one bar) so sounds rushed or contrived. There must be more...

I had the same question in my mind before, it passes too quickly, have you tried anticipating it early? by playing out an altered arpeggio before the dominant chord started up, if played and resolved correctly it can create a real nice tension and motif.

[docbop]

how about start adding color tones to your lines 9, 11, 13, then altered notes to your V's like b9, +9 etc. But start practice adding one color tone at a time so you train your ear to here it.

[ksjazzguitar]

Along with the other fine suggestions already offered, I would suggest learning some classic ii-V-I licks and analyzing how they do what they do. Then try to duplicate that. Don't be afraid to slow things down to give yourself time to think. Don't be afraid to compose some ii-V-I licks. I used to keep a notebook of cool licks that I'd found or written. Hank Mackie told me, "You'll write much better licks than you can ever hope to improvise." I'm sure a few some might argue that, but there is a certain truth to giving yourself sometime to think about it. If you can't get these ideas going by composing them, there's no way you'll be able to do it in the heat of battle. And sometimes I came up with some cool ideas that I later worked into my vocabulary.

Peace,
Kevin

[jayx123]

to add to the above, you can play digital patterns of 4th and
you can also use "side stepping"

[kris]

Transcribe solos of John Scofield.Specialy look like John plays standard tunes : Summertime,Softly,Autumn Leaves, Stella... etc.
Learn small parts of solos and play in different keys.
Sometimes is really difficult to analise these solos but you/ll find a lot "nice" outside notes and lines.

[shakowski]

any note can be played over any chord as long as you approach it right. So find a weird note over a chord and play with it.

[jbraun002]

Don't know if this will help, but it helped me for the same situation, namely, I felt my lines just weren't interesting enough and they didn't have enough dissonance.

Here's what I do/did: I picked a note/interval I thought sounded hip (e.g., a b5 or b2) and started vamping over a dominant chord. Then i would sing and play.

Since I didn't initially hear b5s in the lines I was thinking up, I'd intentionally play a line with one and sing it. Eventually the sound becomes comfortable, and I can sing it into a line.

Right now it's b2 that don't quite register, but they're improving. This has helped me move away from the more straight Western Swing sensibilities I have towards, I hope, hipper lines.

If you try this, you might like some of Aebersold's products, as he has some that provide nice vamps to test ideas out over. Or, Impro-Visor (free) or BIAB (not free) also are good for this kind of thing.

Good luck!

[Edit] - One other idea - you mentioned that the 5-dominant is going by too fast. If you're experiencing this as a 2-5-1 and you want to play dominant lines, just ignore the 2 and treat the whole structure as a 5-1 - should give you more time to explore the dominant tones. Otherwise, at least for learning purposes, if you're on a blues try out the ideas you're thinking about even on the 1 and 4. Sure, the function is different, and your ears will probably want to create maximal dissonance on the 5, but for practicing you'll get more time that way (assuming the 1 in your blues is a regular old 7 variant). Just a thought.

[mr. beaumont]

I think it's a great idea jbraun.

Try the b2 (b9) resolving to the fifth of a major chord a fifth below the dominant chord.

So in the key of G, try a Eb on the D7 chord resolving to a D on the G chord. That's probably the easiest way to hear it I can think of.

[Trueman68]

Thanks to all for some great advise. I will try them out and just hope i can generate some interesting lines. Much appreciated, and good to know people have faced the same challenge.

[milesfandavid]

When playing "out", especially ove a non-dominant chord, I think it helps immensely to play with conviction - if you feel timid or unsure about what you're doing, that comes though. As long as you can resolve your line, you'll get away with murder if you're sure of yourself. That's been my experience, anyway.

[cosmic gumbo]

You can play out stuff that anticipates the V when on the ii, and you can use V stuff over the I.

[JonnyPac]

This is the idea: inside outside inside. I read about this in a jazz guitar lick book/cd set. I listened to the examples in the book. One example has a three bar Eb dorian line over Dm!! Ouch! The track played in tempo sounded a little better than the slow version, IMHO. It seems like playing fast works better. Perhaps it's like tearing off a band-aid! lol.

I have not been able to get outside much myself. I don't hear it. I am not a Scofield fan at all either. I do enjoy hearing Herbie Hancock, Eric Dolphy, McCoy Tyner and others get out though. I think the piano has the two-hand advantage and horn players can play slippery indeterminate lines better than the guitar. Who knows. If y'all figure out the magic trick please let me know!

[JonnyPac]

The Dim Octatonic over V7 chords is as out sounding as I get. It's really inside though...

Dm7 G13b9 C



-------------------------------------3-----6------9------8-
--3--5--6--5--3---------------5--3-----6------9------8----
------------------5--2--3--4-------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------

[Reg]

There's a difference between interesting playing and playing out. As jonny was bring up there are techniques for using harmonic or melodic material... but in order to play "out" you need a pretty good understanding of what "in" is. Most players who enjoy playing "out" use different methodologies for structuring their choice of what to play when they go outside of the harmonic area implied. Many of the techniques are very mechanical, (like playing typical scales), and are simply using other choices of harmonic material to pull from. A simple example is to play from harmonic area a 1/2 step above, or any interval. Our ears have been trained to hear transpositions of Minor 3rds and perfect 4th as well as the 1/2 step. There are many more control methods... constant structure, Diminished , any system or method with some organizational control which can be heard at some point usually works... as usual the better the player... the better the system will usually work. I use dim. patterns for structuring my control of going out most of the time... it's easy to hear and players can usually pick up on what I'm doing and go with me or at least know rhythmically when I finish the mechanical pattern... an example could be... a simple two beat lick in which I mechanically move up in a...whole step... half step pattern with some sort of rhythmic feel. Hope helps Reg

[merseybeat]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

A fun thing to try is to use visual patterns (disregarding note choice) over any point of tension and work on getting back in smoothly (An idea I gleaned from some Howard Roberts lesson material) In otherwords, not how you fly the plane but how you land.

Wow cant believe the Jazz police never gave you a ticket for that one Mr. B ! But its something a lot of us do! Just never admit it! I'm coming out of the closet too!

Eddie

[Carlball]

Try the half whole diminished scale. Start a half step above the root of the chord and then skip every other note continuing through the half whole scale. Then choose one of those notes and play the half step below it and you get a blue sound. Create a lick you like and move it up or down a minor third.