How do you listen to jazz improvisations?

[dyross]

I am wondering what some of the more experienced jazz guitarists listen to and listen for in good jazz playing. Perhaps this is due to my lack of experience as a jazzer, but I wish I could hear more.

Currently, I get much enjoyment from listening to a good jazz guitarist. I can feel the emotion, the energy, the tension and release, the interplay, and the contour. I relate to the melodicism, tone, the rhythm, the structure of some of the more simple progressions (blues, rhythm, ii-V-I's, etc.). I don't, however, hear specifics of the soloing - and for more contemporary compositions (anything by Kurt Rosenwinkel) I love it, but don't feel like I "get it".

Does this come with experience? Transcribing? One issue, I'm sure, might be that I enjoy music that is much more complicated than music I can play / understand. I'm curious what others hear in music and how they may have found that their ears have progressed over time.

[mr. beaumont]

I listen for pleasure, and I listen to learn/lift ideas.

I actually try not to mix the two too much...But usually, if there's something in someone's playing that makes me say "Hell Yeah!" I've got to go back and figure it out.

But very rarely, do I sit down, put some nice headphones on, and say "Ooh, all pentatonics, interesting!"

There's a time to be technical and analyze, but the most important reason I listen to and play jazz because I just like the way it sounds.

[dyross]

I definitely feel you on this, mr. beaumont, but I expect you have a more developed ear than me. For example, a guitarist friend showed me a Mike Moreno clip on Youtube - "Isn't he playing nice lines?" I like complex music - coming from a Prog rock background - and I want to enjoy harmonically complex music. But I want to hear it, too.

[mr. beaumont]

Part of it is to work your way up to it. Some of the first jazz I heard was Miles' Davis Bitches Brew. My ears were NOT ready. Now, I love it. But it wasn't something I could "relate" to the first time I heard it, y'know?

I had to hear "Kind of Blue" first and expand my "jazz pallate..."

The other thing that does give an appreciation is playing. The more you play jazz, the more your ear becomes familiar with it. Less and less sounds truly dissonant, you can appreciate ideas you might feel someone reaching for, and you start to hear why someone might say a line is particularly "nice."

[ksjazzguitar]

Yeah, maybe you just haven't developed a taste for Rosenwinkel yet. I would say that I "get" him, I just don't necessarily think it's my favorite thing.

Like many others, I didn't "get" jazz at first. Similarly, "Kind of Blue" was a nice introduction and then my palette expanded from there. It was a gradual process. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just keep listening, playing, and studying and things will take care of themselves. Jazz is sophisticated music so it takes a while to learn to understand it. And there are different levels of understanding that come with different types of jazz. Don't worry, you'll get there.

Peace,
Kevin

[Stackabones]

Originally Posted by dyross

I love it, but don't feel like I "get it".

That's a wonderful place to be. Not all things can be explained or understood, ya know?

I once heard painter Wayne Thiebaud give a presentation on art that had influenced him. He went over various artists from various periods going over what he liked about this or that, and then he showed a painting of Magritte. He said he loved it, but didn't know why or even understand what it was about.

Analysis or sophistication or even experience can take us deeper into something, but those aren't the only ways to "get it". The mystery of why we love something can be beyond anything we can comprehend.

[robertm2000]

I don't know if you have any experience in classical music. I spent college learning about Baroque music, and the linear music that was the fashion then. There is a lot of improvisation in Baroque music, in ornamentation of melodic lines, and improvising accompaniments (figured bass). It was that which tipped me off on how to listen. Joe Pass plays these gorgeous melody lines that fit right in with the rhythm section - but he does the same kind of playing when he's solo, spinning out melodies that show he has the same skills as a composer. And he's able to do it on the fly, so to speak. It's like listening to the counterpoint of J. S. Bach.

[cosmic gumbo]

Listen, listen, listen, until you get it in your ear and head.

[jayx123]

I just listen trying to absorb it in the general musical sense until I hear it a phrase a lick something which stands out and cries out "take me please" then I transcribe it and figure out ways to incorporate it in my improvisation.

[JonnyPac]

I have felt "left out" by Kurt and Mike Moreno. I like it but I don't "get" it either. Sometimes repeated listening gives me a way in, but not yet. I have 12+ discs of their stuff. I really want to like it. Perhaps someday I'll find the "Rosenwinkel stone".

I listen and hear a lot of the harmonic structure in music. Chord qualities and voicings really stand out to me. Compound melodies like Bird would bust out are fun too. I think I hear a lot, but I know there is much mystery beyond me... It's good. I hope to keep expanding my perceptions. My rhythmic sense is my weakest. Crazy polyrhythms can lead me over a cliff once in a while.

[fumblefingers]

it can be "ear opening" to listen to great jazz in historical order. (all instruments and ensemble types). From Louie Armstrong to 2011 new releases.

there is a great jazz history book with CD that helps you with this. kind of expensive because its used as a text book some times. available on amazon.com

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

There's a time to be technical and analyze, but the most important reason I listen to and play jazz because I just like the way it sounds.

Exactly. In fact, I think you become technical and analytical because you "like the way it sounds."

I had to play guitar because I liked the sounds. I was drawn in as a kid. And, I ventured into different musical genres because they lured me in.

It's incremental. You follow your ear and go with what moves you.

[mr. beaumont]

So true ^^^^


Oh, and JohnnyPac, I took to Rosenwinkel as a sideman more than as a leader at first--that's how I got into him...really liked him on Mark Turner's "YamYam" and on that Brian Blade Fellowship record...what's it called? Change of Seasons or something like that?

After that, I couldn't get enough Kurt.

[dyross]

Not to take this thread in a totally different direction, but hey I posted it originally!

How do you guys hear forms? I can usually recognize typical 4th-based harmonic movement (i.e. Autumn Leaves) and hear some basic forms like blues and rhythm changes (though I even struggled to hear blues sometimes, see http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...ml#post117792). Again, does this just come from listening / playing a lot? Anything that is recommended for developing my ear for form?

Back to the Rosenwinkel example, I think what I miss the most from listening is the idea of form. I really enjoy his playing, but sometimes don't feel like I have a common ground from which to approach the music. I purchased Amazon.com: Mel Bay Kurt Rosenwinkel Compositions (9780786674619): Kurt Rosenwinkel: Books and though I haven't spent much time with it, the compositions seem quite advanced. Do you all hear form and structure in his tunes?

[JonnyPac]

I really like when the form is easily accessible. Sometimes looking at the bars in a chart helps. Gloria's Step and Blue in Green are two tunes that Bill Evans plays that fir in 10 bar groups! I am kind of hardwired to hear in 4, 8, 12, 16, or 32 bar forms. In other cases, riff or vamp based jazz is relaxing (think of a 20min Coltrane jam on one chord); it's all about the feel and energy. Find charts, they help. Listen and count bars too during the head, the solos usually follow the same form (or a simpler one).

As a composer I really think about form a lot. Wayne Shorter used a lot of AB forms in the 60's; so simple but such a good balance for the fresh changes he was using at the time. My forms are usually very obvious, though I use a variety of bars/forms. It helps my trio stay on target if it is easy to hear during a performance.

I get "left out" in listening when the form is hidden, the rhythm is complex and only implied, and the top lines play outside more than inside. I stick to 50's and 60's jazz 90% of the time; I feel at home as a listener and challenged in an enjoyable way.

Mr B. I've got Kurt's sideman stuff too. I like the clean gtr sound the best. I probably need to transcribe his lines before I get in. His rhythm and interval use is a little beyond my ear right now. His two-disc live set is my fav so far. I'm not to motivated yet... I like my classic post-bop too much.