any pointers on soloing over Corcovado?

[richb2]

as it appears in the Real Book?

[ksjazzguitar]

That's a pretty big question. Was there some spot in particular?

Peace,
Kevin

[richb2]

Yes. The D7/A and the Abdim7.

[M-ster]

Those are the first two changes ...

The D7/A sounds like it wants A melodic minor, to me. We discussed the Abdim7 in another thread ... Some argued that it was a G7(13)(b9) in disguise, which might color your interpretation of what to play on it. Double diminished is a convenient choice. You also might try C harmonic major (C major with a b6th degree - i.e., the Ab - Try it before you summarily dismiss it!)

[ksjazzguitar]

There was another thread where we discussed this a little. You can look back for some other ideas.

I play D Mixolydian for the D7. Sometimes it is written as Am6, in which case you can use A Dorian, basically the same thing.

The Abdim gets an Ab diminished scale: Ab Bb C Db D E F G.

Just try to focus on the chord tones and use the scales to connect them. Try to see and bring out how the chord tones move into the next chord. It just takes practice.

Originally Posted by M-ster

...The D7/A sounds like it wants A melodic minor, to me. We discussed the Abdim7 in another thread ...

I guess that works too. I usually try to keep this song more simple, more folksy, but that G# does add a nice jazzy touch.

Originally Posted by M-ster

Some argued that it was a G7(13)(b9) in disguise, which might color your interpretation of what to play on it.

I do sometimes think of it that way. But for me, it ends up being the same thing, either Ab WH diminished or G HW diminished.

Originally Posted by M-ster

You also might try C harmonic major (C major with a b6th degree - i.e., the Ab - Try it before you summarily dismiss it!)

Interesting. The only thing I don't like is that I still hear that chord/scale as wanting the E (as opposed to the Eb) that we had in the melody. I think that it is moving away from the original chord/scale, but it does work. But again, for some reason I try not to get to harmonically advanced on this tune, preferring to just keep it light and folksy.

Peace,
Kevin

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Guys, in measures 3-4, I see the Ab dim 7 as really a G7b9 chord. Jobim likes that "G dom to G minor" progression, like near the beginning of "Girl from Ipanema".

But what about the "turnaround", the Ab dim 7 in measure 16, where it goes back to D7? The melody in measure 16 is f-e-d-c, which doesn't seem to fit anything I can think of.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Guys, in measures 3-4, I see the Ab dim 7 as really a G7b9 chord. Jobim likes that "G dom to G minor" progression, like near the beginning of "Girl from Ipanema".

Yeah, as said, that is one way to look at it. But the iii7->biiidim7->iim7 is also a common progression. I think that they are closely related and share much voice leading.

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

But what about the "turnaround", the Ab dim 7 in measure 16, where it goes back to D7? The melody in measure 16 is f-e-d-c, which doesn't seem to fit anything I can think of.

Yeah, the melody is not really strongly implying anything. I think of Abdim7 as a secondary leading tone to the Am6, which can be subbed as D7/A.

Peace,
Kevin

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by richb2

Yes. The D7/A and the Abdim7.

I have never had need to take this much past I chord to V chord. The second tonality is E7b9#5 (in the first inversion), also known as the A Harmonic Minor. To me, that the melody repeats the E,D alternation is what says V chord.

So, first pass through or any mostly-inside pass through that is staying faithful to the original melody and harmony, use the A Dorian tone set to the A Harmonic Minor tone set.

Just don't make the I-V sound like the left hand Alberti of a grade one Motzart etude:
A C E C A C E C
B D F D B D F D
There's plenty of texture in that A Harmonic. There are three downward half-step tension releases which make simple and obvious melodic oppurtunies to bulid on.

IMO, the best oppurtunites to use more deviant reharmonizations are the climax points that come later in the progression.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Interesting. The only thing I don't like is that I still hear that chord/scale as wanting the E (as opposed to the Eb) that we had in the melody.

Note that I suggested C harmonic major, which does contain the E natural.

But, no matter, I like Aristotle's suggestion (treat as E7, with A harmonic minor) much better than mine.

Originally Posted by bdlh

But what about the "turnaround", the Ab dim 7 in measure 16, where it goes back to D7? The melody in measure 16 is f-e-d-c, which doesn't seem to fit anything I can think of.

The 557 standards PDF shows the 16th bar as G7 with a suggested Abdim in parens. Since it's preceded by a D-7, it makes sense to me to treat this one as G7; but I suppose you could treat it as iv - V7 (in A minor) for your lines.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Note that I suggested C harmonic major, ...

Oops. My mistake. I don't deal much with the harm maj, so I didn't even notice.

Peace,
Kevin

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

But E7 going to Gmin7? One thing I like to do with diminished chords that hang around is to slide dom7ths up or down by minor thirds.

Here, Abdim7 could be G7, E7, C#7 or Bb7 (sprinkle in b9s if you like).

So, as an alternative to the descending "Amin Abdim Gmin" You could play around with "D7 [C#7(b9/#9) E7 G7] Gmin". I'm thinking more about comping than soloing, but is it too weird either way?

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

But E7 going to Gmin7? One thing I like to do with diminished chords that hang around is to slide dom7ths up or down by minor thirds.

You're not wrong, but two points.

It's just a first option. If you think you're more advanced or your audience is too advanced for what seems like a trite harmonic approach, just do what you like or think sounds better. I am just saying you need to start somewhere, so why not the begininng?

Second, the song as written does not connect the G#dim (E7) to the G min. The G min starts the next phrase and tonality by beginning a modulation to F. The basic structure is four measures of Am followed by four measures of F. The way the song breathes to me, there is a small breath at the end of the second measure and bigger breath at the end of the fourth (which disconnects the E7 and Gm). The Am and E7 are connected by a repeated melodic figure, which changes to a variation when the song changes to F.

It may be advisable to temper my remarks with the understanding that I am primarily a nylon string guy, who plays mostly solo, and I lean toward an originalist approach to bossa nova's. If you play pick-style electric fronting a trio, then maybe you have to open up more.

[M-ster]

No need to apologize, your approach was quite suitable, Aristotle.

[mr. beaumont]

I've recently found myself heading to Am and Em pentatonic over those first two chords, then of course, to Gm over the ii V in F. Then again, I've been listening to a lot of Joe Henderson and Woody Shaw lately.


With the melody note of E over the Abdim, You could hear a G13b9 sound and anytime I see a domb9 I start thinking about movement in m3rd's, and how different is a Bb13b9 than an E7#9 really, and doesn't the blues scale just fit a 7#9 nicely!

I'm sure there's a lot better way to arrive to that mind you--just a snapshot inside how my convoluted brain works!

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

But E7 going to Gmin7? ...

It's not that far out there. One of the standard subs for beats 3 and 4 of measure 5 "Georgia" (in F) is an E7. (One of my teachers insisted that this is Charmichael's original change, but I haven't been able to check that claim.) So, for that and the next measure, this gives an FMaj7->E7->Gm7->C7 progression. Of course, if you do a diatonic sub on the I, you get Am7->E7->Gm7->C7 (which could also be Am7->Abdim7->Gm7->C7, not that far from "Corcavado.")

How do we analyze that E7? Well, we've gone through a lot of options. It could be a sub for the Abdim7, a passing dim chord from Am7 to Gm7. Of course that itself could be a sub for a G13b9. The E7 could be an extension of a common tone diminished. It could also be a backward resolving dominant (more common in classical than in jazz. I guess you could also say that it eventually resolves (with some interpolations) to the FMaj7, which would simply be a deceptive cadence.

Which is the correct analysis? I think that they are all correct from their perspective. Remember, it's music theory, not music immutable-law.

Peace,
Kevin

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

... Remember, it's music theory, not music immutable-law.

It's a practice - like medicine!

[kris]

I heard version/corcovado/ of Joe Pass with different harmony...:-)

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by kris

I heard version/corcovado/ of Joe Pass with different harmony...:-)

There used to be a YouTube - gone now - in which he very obviously treated it as I-V.

Oscar Petersen, a colleague of Joe, seems to treat the "dim" as a V-chord in this technically advanced, but harmonically basic performance.
YouTube - Corcovado - Oscar Peterson Trio - We Get Requests

------
It seems to me that one of the harmonic bases of the song is chord change by descending voices.
From the Am6, two voices (or three) descend to G#dim, then three voices descend to Gm7, then two voices descend to C7.

Also, there is Lydian Dominant thing in the B-sction of the song, on the Fm7-Bb7. I am surprised the ever-watchful "jazz-mnor" afficianados on the forum didn't jump on that.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

... It seems to me that one of the harmonic bases of the song is chord change by descending voices.

Yes! This is Jobim in a nutshell, to me. It's the voice leading that creates the interesting harmonic movement through all his compositions, IMHO.

And, wow, that Oscar P interpretation is beautiful, despite the rhythm section's weird "Latin" backing.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Oscar Petersen, a colleague of Joe, seems to treat the "dim" as a V-chord in this technically advanced, but harmonically basic performance.
YouTube - Corcovado - Oscar Peterson Trio - We Get Requests

I transcribed a bit of this one. It's here:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...corcovado.html

Oscar's playing Ab melodic minor stuff over the Abdim7 in both spots it occurs during his improv'd chorus. So, I'm assuming/concluding he's treating it as G7 alt, once he has no E in the melody to contend with.

(Er, to be sure, he doesn't play any D naturals or Dbs during those bars, so one could argue he's thinking C harmonic minor, since, technically, there's an enharmonic D natural in Abdim7. But, he's pretty clearly outlining Ab-6(9) sounds. And he's not treating it as an E7.)

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by M-ster

And he's not treating it as an E7.)

The melody notes in meas 3 and 4 over a G# bass note is not E7? OK. I guess my ears have been too contaminated by teaching from Grade 1 and 2 piano books, where they seem to love the voicing - G#-D-E - for the V-chord.

So. Anyone else have any ideas for soloing over Corc.?

[JohnW400]

I just had a look at the Jobim site and checked the sheet music. After the intro the first chord is Ami6. The piano plays A, F# C. The only D is in the melody. The chords are listed as so

Ami6 G#dim7 b13 Gmi7 C9 sus4 Gb9* F6. The Gb9 is Fdim7 in the RB. I'll have to check out the recording to see .

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

The melody notes in meas 3 and 4 over a G# bass note is not E7? OK....

Yes, that's one way to interpret it. I tend to hear the E as an extension, but that is subjective. I hear the Ab as the root, but maybe that is just because that is how I learned to think of it.

I've been thinking about this whole "How can E7 resolve to Gm?" thing. I was on a gig and suddenly came across another example: "Stella by Starlight." The change in measures 2 to 3, is A7 to Cm7, the same movement - it is a VII7 resolving to a ii7. That has always been one of my favorite chord changes in the book and I never realized that it had this in common. I'm sure if we look we can find more. I know that the Handcock version of "Scarborough Fair" has the same change too.

So, the E7-Gm7 interpretation at first looks odd, but really has a pretty good pedigree. It may not fit what theory tells us is "correct" but who cares? - our ears say what is right, not theory. If our ears contradict the theory, then the theory has to change. But I think that you can build a good theoretical explanation of it, it's just a little off the beaten path - but that's what makes it sound so interesting.

Peace,
Kevin

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Yes, that's one way to interpret it. I tend to hear the E as an extension, but that is subjective. I hear the Ab as the root, but maybe that is just because that is how I learned to think of it.

Or purposely amorphous. Like the classic, is it Am7 or C6. Even the first measure's chord is vague: D9 with A bass, or Am6

As far as E7-Gm, any change can be addressed. In keeping with my Am Harm idea, starting on the fourth beat of the third measure, eighth notes could go: E F G G# B G# G F E D Bb . You might note that A Harm Min type scale has five of the six notes Peterson uses in that measure you are reading as Ab-6(9)

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

You might note that A Harm Min type scale has five of the six notes Peterson uses in that measure you are reading as Ab-6(9)

Looking at bars 55 - 56, in particular, I find it hard to conclude that he's thinking anything other than Ab melodic minor (which has all the notes in Ab-6(9), btw). I spelled the Cbs as B naturals, for a little easier reading, but he's clearly arpeggiating Ab-6(9) in bar 55. Bar 56 starts with 1 - 7 - 6 - 5 from Ab mel minor, then he outlines an Ab-(add 9) again. That's not very ambiguous, to me.

You're kind of flailing against the messenger, here. I just transcribed the example you originally provided. That's not to say Oscar has the only possible interpretation of the changes - but it is what it is.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by M-ster

You're kind of flailing against the messenger, here.

Oh. I thought I was the messenger being flailed at. Oops.

I thought my message was E7 is a starting point, and there is a fair amount of mileage to be had treating what sounds like a V-chord as a V-chord.

I don't really know what your trying to say about Abm. If you are trying to suggest it as a tip on soloing over Corcovado, that is not coming across directly. If I can still get to essentially the same tone set without getting out of the V-chord comfort zone, then what is the point. I have played Petersen's two measures about ten times each with the Eb, and the E natural. I don't perceive any significant difference.

The question is, other than my suggestion, is there another in this thread? That's what I am looking for. I figured if I was going to forage other people's ideas, I shouldn't come empty-handed.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

The question is, other than my suggestion, is there another in this thread? That's what I am looking for.

Gee, there are a number of other suggestions in the thread.

I suggested:

Double diminished is a convenient choice.

And:

You also might try C harmonic major (C major with a b6th degree - i.e., the Ab - Try it before you summarily dismiss it!)

Kevin suggested:

The Abdim gets an Ab diminished scale: Ab Bb C Db D E F G.

BigDaddy suggested:

I see the Ab dim 7 as really a G7b9 chord.

Then you showed up to say:

The second tonality is E7b9#5 (in the first inversion), also known as the A Harmonic Minor.

Then I applauded your suggestion:

... I like Aristotle's suggestion (treat as E7, with A harmonic minor) much better than mine.

Then Mr. Beaumont provided two suggestions:

... Am and Em pentatonic over those first two chords ... You could hear a G13b9 sound and anytime I see a domb9 I start thinking about movement in m3rd's, and how different is a Bb13b9 than an E7#9 really, and doesn't the blues scale just fit a 7#9 nicely!

Then you introduced the Oscar vid':

Oscar Petersen, a colleague of Joe, seems to treat the "dim" as a V-chord in this technically advanced, but harmonically basic performance.
YouTube - Corcovado - Oscar Peterson Trio - We Get Requests

Then I did all the heavy lifting, transcribing and analyzing for everyone, and you got your feathers ruffled about the outcome.

I'm not insisting any one interpretation is somehow "right" or "correct," I'm just noticing, hey, isn't it interesting that Oscar Peterson (who has at least some measure of credibility in the jazz idiom) didn't do any of the options we forumites suggested?

[fep]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

The question is, other than my suggestion, is there another in this thread? That's what I am looking for. I figured if I was going to forage other people's ideas, I shouldn't come empty-handed.

lol, the internet can be a very funny place.

[ksjazzguitar]

Gee, I hate to keep this thread going, but...

Originally Posted by M-ster

Gee, there are a number of other suggestions in the thread. ...

But in all fairness, the Abdim and G13b9 are relative chord/scales, just with a change of root, as is your double-diminished scale. A harm min is just another scale choice for Abdim7. So they really aren't that different.

Originally Posted by M-ster

Oscar Peterson (who has at least some measure of credibility in the jazz idiom) didn't do any of the options we forumites suggested?

Yes, but he's reharmonized that second chord for the solos, so of course he's going to use another scale for his solos. It sounds like he's playing Abdim7 on the head, but he's subbing a an Abm6 for the solos. Maybe he wasn't sure what to play over that Abdim7either.

Peace,
Kevin

[Aristotle]

I am still interested in the idea that the second chord isn't a V, but it only seems respectful to address some individual points.

You also might try C harmonic major (C major with a b6th degree - i.e., the Ab - Try it before you summarily dismiss it!)

How could I summarily dismiss it, when I suggested a line that uses it?

The G-note in your scale works well as both a passing tone or color extenstion on E7 in the A Harm Minor environment. This seems to cover the G7 suggestion, it came along with the minor-third thing and was equated to E7, and E7 is what I was saying.

I guess the Am pent and Em pent as so inside, it didn't register - and includes all the same notes I get to from the E7 in the A Harm. environment. And as KS said, anything that says "Abdim" sounds inside, and is again within reach of E7 with the notes E, F, G, G#.

Not to offend the posters, but I didn't really see anything I could use.
----

Getting back to the second chord as a V. Aren't the first three chords of Corcovado and How Insensitive the same three chords? Im, V7, bVII min?
Instead of the melody rocking back and forth between 5 and 4 of the scale, it rocks back and forth between 5 and 6.

But isn't it more clear in the same progression in How Insensitve that the second chord is a V chord?