Playing using tension, dissonance, etc.

[Pomegranate]

Hello all! My name is Andrew. I am new to this site, but intend on posting regularly, so I look forward to learning as much as I can.

In order to spice up my guitar playing and improv, I was looking to get outside the box a little bit and experiment with some extra dissonance and tension when playing. However, I haven't been able to do so gracefully yet, so I was wondering if any of you have any knowledge on the subject.

Which intervals/modes/scales are good here, and which should be avoided? Are there any specific artists/songs/licks that come to mind? What is the best way to ease this into my playing gracefully?

Thanks for your help!
Andrew

[liponguitas]

I usually use superlocrian scale to create tension, do you know it?

[Pomegranate]

I am unfamiliar. My technical knowledge is pretty basic.

[FatJeff]

The best way to get "that jazz sound" into your playing is to start investigating and playing around with the melodic minor scale and its modes. (Note that in jazz, unlike classical, melodic minor scales are played the same both ascending and descending, and thus the scale is sometimes called "jazz minor".) The "superlocrian" scale referred to by liponguitas is just the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale, and is also known as the "altered" scale, or the "diminished whole tone" scale.

This is not a small undertaking. I've been dinking around with it now for about 6 months, and I'm just now starting to get some of the sounds incorporated comfortably into my playing. I believe that you have to understand both the underlying theory as well as the practical aspects of using melodic minor to really have it work in your solos.

There are several threads on this forum that go into this topic in detail. There is a Don Mock book on this that serves as a decent introduction for guitarists: Amazon.com: Melodic Minor: Revealed (9780769215563): Don Mock: Musical Instruments. There is a much more thorough treatment of the subject in Mark Levine's "Jazz Theory Book": Amazon.com: The Jazz Theory Book (9781883217044): Mark Levine: Books. Emily Remler (one of my favorite jazz guitarists, may she RIP) has a video called "Advanced Jazz & Latin Improvisation" that deals with her approach to this subject as well; you can check it out on Youtube: YouTube - Emily Remler - Advanced Jazz & Latin Improvisation pt.2. See 6:25 of this video and follow it into Pt 3 of the video.

Ask back here if you have more specific questions.

[liponguitas]

The theory about that scale (al least what is important) can br found in this forum, if you type superlocrian in the search.

The practice, how to use the scale, in harder to explain.
What I usually do is finding the points of "tension" in the changes.
For example in a blues i use ot over the last chord as a link to the first chord of the chorus. In stella by Starlight i use it over the G7alt.
Notice that isually this scale is used over the V chord that is converted in a G7alt chord.

The most important thing is to resolve the scale to the next chord smoothly.

Try to create some licks using the superlocrian scale and resolving to the next chord of the changes.

Maybe you can find one lick ot two in the web to "open your ears".

Good luck and sorry for my bad English.

Just a opinion...Don't run ahead of your legs...Before using these scales i think you must be confortable using the basic stuff (that is the most important one).

[liponguitas]

Yes fatjeff,
I'm also working in this stuff for some months, It's hard, just now having the first results...

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by liponguitas

Just a opinion...Don't run ahead of your legs...Before using these scales i think you must be confortable using the basic stuff (that is the most important one).

Definitely. You must first master major scale harmony before you even start to think about melodic minor, harmonic minor, etc.

[mr. beaumont]

And of course--there's sidestepping--and no new scales needed to be known.

Over a chord that asks for tension (like an altered dominant) start your line a half step lower (or higher) than would be "in key," and slip your way back to "in key," with a strong resolution. It's all about how you get back in--it takes practice, but it's the simplest way of getting "outside sounds"

And yes, "superlocrian" works over an altered dominant (just think melodic minor up a half step, unless you really want to think about altering all those notes on the fly, so Ab MM over a G7alt chord) but as wild as some of those notes sound--they're actually "inside" notes over an altered chord!

[derek]

Yeah, I gues I don't agree that super locrian or the melodic minor scale in general is the easiest way to get tension going. Side slipping or side stepping as Mr. B pointed out, and diminished or whole tone licks, which lay out on the board very simply, get you there quicker imo.

Then there is the thing I learned in rock, where you play a repeating lick, either descending or ascending chromatically, in whole steps, minor 3rds, or whatever, until you arrive at your destination. Since you are playing a repeating theme, and doing it in constant intervals, your mind hooks onto the pattern more than the fact that most of what you just played isn't anywhere near the key the tune is in, but it builds tension nicely. YMMV

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Is this "other scales" or sidestepping?


(Still fighting with TuxG about enharmonic note choice...)

The G7 measure uses the G altered scale (super loc) while the C measure is the first, played backwards and a half step lower. It's my JS Bach lick!

[liponguitas]

Sidestepping...Damn it that is so easy to understand and I always forget to study it and use it !

[Goofsus4]

If you want to start easily and deliberately, try just introducing one tension at a time into your regular arp-based or major scale-based lines. For instance, over at minor7th chord, just try introducing the major7th interval to your regular inside stuff. That's the essence of what the melodic minor will give you over a minor7th anyway. Same goes for other tensions. Over a dom7, you can just try adding in the b5 or the b3 (very common blues tension and you probably already use it copiously). Or you might even try working in the b9. I honestly find that tension hard to work into an unaltered dom7 unless I just use it as a passing or approach interval, but see what you think. Over a major7, try introducing the #4 (b5). Also, take the time to explore playing a chromatic run in successive half steps to get from one chord tone to another when you are making changes. That often sounds outside briefly, but with a strong sense of resolution and that's the whole secret to being outside tastefully I think. Also try approching any note you play in your normal inside lines from a half a step away. There are some intervals for certain chords that this doesn't always work well for, but you'll find the really sweet sounding ones pretty quickly. When you do, make a note of it and try to find where those intervals occur for a given chord root and chord quality and learn to grab them at will.

That's a simple start that is very productive yet requires no scale practice (not that there's anything wrong with scales, mind you, but they do take some time to master and be able to apply them deliberately over changes).

[Claudi]

Hi, guys!
Sorry to ask, but what's sidestepping? Never heard/read about it before.

[mr. beaumont]

Sidestepping:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

And of course--there's sidestepping--and no new scales needed to be known.

Over a chord that asks for tension (like an altered dominant) start your line a half step lower (or higher) than would be "in key," and slip your way back to "in key," with a strong resolution. It's all about how you get back in--it takes practice, but it's the simplest way of getting "outside sounds"

[IbanezAS100]

[quote=mr. beaumont;96421]And of course--there's sidestepping--and no new scales needed to be known.

I'll second this approach-it's usually best to build on what you know already. So, just to add to this, how about those familiar pentatonic licks...You can get a lot of mileage by superimposing them over a dominant chord. Just to get you started, over G7 you could play Fm Pent and Bbm Pent. And maybe before resolving to C you could side-step to Db or B.

Triads will also work very nicely in a similar way and it will be easier to introduce varying degrees of dissonance...

[bako]

Years ago I learned to play the blues Stormy Monday which included many half step above and half step below slides to the primary chord.

F#7---G7 or Ab7---G7.

I believe sidestepping to be a melodic manifestation of this simple blues concept though sometimes used within a broader harmonic framework.

[mr. beaumont]

bako

exactly--approaching chords from a half step below or above has been around forever.

this is the same idea, but in the melody line--the tension happens when the chord undernath doesn't move, of course.

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Hello all! My name is Andrew. I am new to this site, but intend on posting regularly, so I look forward to learning as much as I can.

Andrew

I hate to use a lick approach, so I will try to advise you with what I use/know.

on minors that are ii (the ones that resolve to a V/dominant chord) I use harmonic minor to imply a V7 altered over the ii. That is, if the ii chord is a d minor, try using a Bb and C# to imply an A7b9 moving to the d minor. Or you can use a Bb melodic minor to imply an altered A7 moving to the d-. Some folks use phrygian and dorian altered, not my thing

Dominants-HERE is where you want to imply tension if the chord does resolve down a fourth to a "I" chord.
let's take G7. here's your altered tensions: b9 (Ab) #9(Bb) b5=Db, #5=Eb

there are infinite devices on how you can use these four altered tones to improvise. I suggest you start by playing each one individually, the resolve it to a chord tone of the I/C major chord. example: play a whole note of Eb over a G7, resolve it to an E when the C comes, do the same with Bb oving to B, Ab moving to G, Db moving to C.

For major, the only tension I know of/use are either a b5 or a #5. Try playing a major triad off the second scale degree of the major chord, or a minor 7b5 arpeggio a tri-tone up.

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

And of course--there's sidestepping--and no new scales needed to be known.

Over a chord that asks for tension (like an altered dominant) start your line a half step lower (or higher) than would be "in key," and slip your way back to "in key," with a strong resolution. It's all about how you get back in--it takes practice, but it's the simplest way of getting "outside sounds"

Originally Posted by IbanezAS100;

I'll second this approach-it's usually best to build on what you know already. So, just to add to this, how about those familiar pentatonic licks...You can get a lot of mileage by superimposing them over a dominant chord. Just to get you started, over G7 you could play Fm Pent and Bbm Pent. And maybe before resolving to C you could side-step to Db or B.

Years ago I learned to play the blues Stormy Monday which included many half step above and half step below slides to the primary chord.

F#7---G7 or Ab7---G7.

[/quote=bako;]I believe sidestepping to be a melodic manifestation of this simple blues concept though sometimes used within a broader harmonic framework.[/quote]

Ok, Thank you for the info. I'll keep it in my mind.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

on minors that are ii (the ones that resolve to a V/dominant chord) I use harmonic minor to imply a V7 altered over the ii. That is, if the ii chord is a d minor, try using a Bb and C# to imply an A7b9 moving to the d minor.

(D E F G A Bb C# D) over Dmin (of a ii-V) -- I like that, too.

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

Or you can use a Bb melodic minor to imply an altered A7 moving to the d-.

(Bb C Db Eb F G A Bb) over Dmin7? You're braver than me! Maybe if you reharmonized it A7alt Dmin7 or Eb7 Dmin7.

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

For major, the only tension I know of/use are either a b5 or a #5.

I use the #11 (b5) lydian sound over major chords all the time. I think I may use it more than the regular 11. But #5? Again, I'm too bashful to do that.

Of course, another thing you can always do is play a blues lick over a major chord. Or is that too corny?

[Vihar]

Play some wrong/random notes deliberately, then resolve it with a simple thing (few notes or a chord) played in key.

[merseybeat]

All of the above!

And in addition get those Triads Down! They are easy and will pay huge dividends! Especially the Augmented triad! To me this is the one that holds my Jazz Minor ideas together! Its a brilliant crutch and gives instant results! Also they are VERY forgiving lol!

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

(D E F G A Bb C# D) over Dmin (of a ii-V) -- I like that, too.



(Bb C Db Eb F G A Bb) over Dmin7? You're braver than me! Maybe if you reharmonized it A7alt Dmin7 or Eb7 Dmin7.



I use the #11 (b5) lydian sound over major chords all the time. I think I may use it more than the regular 11. But #5? Again, I'm too bashful to do that.

Of course, another thing you can always do is play a blues lick over a major chord. Or is that too corny?

BDLH, I try to be as brave as possible. If it isn't about taking chances and risks to create tension, relief, pleasure, pain ect, then why are we even here doing it? I was watching a PBS interview with Herbie H, in which he said when he was younger he was gigging with Miles and they played a show where they had the crowd in the palm of thier hands. Herbie played a completely "wrong" chord when Miles solo'd, and Miles instinctively played the notes out of the "wrong" chord. He said that it taught him not to be afraid of new heights and new places/things.

My whole thing about playing melodic minor up a flat 6th actually came from John Stowell. I was listening to how he said it could be used, and thought " I could use this as a superimposition." The first time I tried it, I played Ab melodic minor over C- in "green Dolphin." Bam! Loved it!

Another idea I use is the Agmented stuff from the fifth degree of a minor chord. These are all things I experiment with as I have realized that my modern colleagues; you guys, and modern "heroes" (pleanty of them) play with a lot of outside ideas. Even four or five different pentatonic scales over one chord works! As far as Maj7#5, that is more modal stuff, or if I want to create surprise ala Thelonious.

I may be crazy, but at least I'm not afraid to admit that it gives me bravery!

[chrisg]

Well basicaly you should probably start by learning these scales: Altered (7th mode of mel min), 1/2 whole diminished, Whole tone, Lydian dominant (4th mode of mel min) and the 5th mode of the harmonic minor (phrygian with Maj 3). and just play one at a time over a 7 chord and see what you like the sound of.

In the end of the day you should let your ear decide what you like but here is a basic idea of what should work with what.

7, 9, 13 - All the scales mentioned
#5 - Lydian dominant, Altered, Whole tone
#9 - Half whole, Altered
b9 - Half whole, Altered
etc...

then just play around with the scales like you would any other until they become second nature and also practice going 'in and out' and the transition between playing diatonicaly and outside on both one chord vamps and ii V I progressions.

[jayx123]

I use sidestepping a lot, as you can introduce the next chord when comping a half step above or below you can do the same improvising

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by jayx123

I use sidestepping a lot, as you can introduce the next chord when comping a half step above or below you can do the same improvising

When comping, I do the sidestep thing for only a beat, or a beat-and-a-half if you count syncopation. How long do y'all hang out in that neighborhood and improvise?

[jayx123]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

When comping, I do the sidestep thing for only a beat, or a beat-and-a-half if you count syncopation. How long do y'all hang out in that neighborhood and improvise?

usually it will be the last beat befor the next chord or max half a bar

[jayx123]

Originally Posted by jayx123

usually it will be the last beat befor the next chord or max half a bar

on a cadence or a turnaround i will do it on the whole bar of the V7 and on the turnaround VI7

[merseybeat]

Nice thread!

Eddie

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

When comping, I do the sidestep thing for only a beat, or a beat-and-a-half if you count syncopation. How long do y'all hang out in that neighborhood and improvise?

depends on the situation, and how i'm playing that evening.

If I'm not feeling it that night, better to stay close. Jamming with a friend the other day, I played out for bars at a time, resolving when I felt tension had built up enough...