Applying arpeggios,scales,etc...

[Rayne]

Hi forum, I don't post often but i like to lurk around the site, it's taught me a lot of valuable stuff. So to my problem. I spend a lot of time practicing scales and arpeggios of every kind in every position, as directed by my guitar instructor (who was on the faculty at Berklee, so I assume he knows what he's doing). I can bring up the arpeggios and scales spontaneously, I just have a hard time doing that in a musical setting. I can play well over easy changes, played slow, but anything else just goes right over my head. I know that if I practice the improvisation part I will eventually get it, but I seem to be stuck in a rut. Can anyone help me?

Thanks Forum.

[mike walker]

Try not to force the scales and arps when you're in a real setting.

Go with your heart and ears, for the music, the energy the feeling. Practice the scales etc like a demon, and they will open up the fretboard to new things.

Try and see what you play as part of a bigger picture. Like small pics inside bigger ones.

Absorb sounds. Scales are sounds. Absorb them into your musical bloodstream. Eventually those sounds will come out, in many ways, melodic, and rhythmic.

Does what you play, having anything to do with what you might sing?

If not, why not?

Just some thoughts for you to peruse.

Mike

[Klok]

I suppose the problem is really not an issue of learning how to play the arpeggios, scales etc. but an issue of making them a natural part of your playing.

Try to sing arpeggio and scale notes while you're playing and try to hear them rather than just play them.

[drobniuch]

You must really learn the changes..
Go tru this:

http://www.learnjazzstandards.com/le...nsen-step-1-a/

[Aristotle]

Sounds to me like you "rut" is that you can play exactly what you practiced.

I think improv is composing. Practice of scales and arpeggios is a good way to learn to play the guitar, a good way to move toward becoming an instrumentalist; but it is probably not a good way to learn composing. Too rote.

I think artistic creativity starts in the mind, projects to the canvass, and then draws from the palette as needed. I don't think it goes in a straight line from the palette to the canvass. So, I don't think you can work with your musical palette of scales, arpeggios and chords and go straight to the canvass with good improv.

Good sounding improv may look like a scale or an arpeggio "over" a chord, but that is not really the genisis of it. To me, "over" the chord sounds like a stasis that most music does not have. Harmonic environment is a moving thing. I think good lines go "through" chords, not "over" them. If the orignal composer's work is C going to E7, the bass player may connect that by playing C,D,D#,E. The comp person may connect with something that has a G on top going to G#, anticipating the improviser will stay closer to the original melody line which connects by going from C to B, and another alternative is something that moves from the F to the E. And after all is played, it probably all looks like some scale or arpeggio, and it can be interpreted to be "over" some chord.

[mike walker]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Sounds to me like you "rut" is that you can play exactly what you practiced.

I think improv is composing. Practice of scales and arpeggios is a good way to learn to play the guitar, a good way to move toward becoming an instrumentalist; but it is probably not a good way to learn composing. Too rote.

I think artistic creativity starts in the mind, projects to the canvass, and then draws from the palette as needed. I don't think it goes in a straight line from the palette to the canvass. So, I don't think you can work with your musical palette of scales, arpeggios and chords and go straight to the canvass with good improv.

Good sounding improv may look like a scale or an arpeggio "over" a chord, but that is not really the genisis of it. To me, "over" the chord sounds like a stasis that most music does not have. Harmonic environment is a moving thing. I think good lines go "through" chords, not "over" them. If the orignal composer's work is C going to E7, the bass player may connect that by playing C,D,D#,E. The comp person may connect with something that has a G on top going to G#, anticipating the improviser will stay closer to the original melody line which connects by going from C to B, and another alternative is something that moves from the F to the E. And after all is played, it probably all looks like some scale or arpeggio, and it can be interpreted to be "over" some chord.

A lovely post, with many important points.

Thanks.

Mike

[mr. beaumont]

Think about what's really happening in those arpeggios. Pick a song with one change to the bar, for the most part at least, like "All the things you are."

Play through the changes once and play whole notes on every bar--play the third of the chord of the moment. Do the same with the seventh. Then play half notes and play "third--seventh" add other notes as you go. This will help you internalize the roadmap, and have the most important notes in any chord at your fingertips instantly as a fallback.

The othr "fallback" should ALWAYS be the melody. Try playing the melody, but in a different rhyhtm. Try playing different notes in the same rhythm as the melody. Aristotle was really on to it--soloing isn't regurgitating previous knowledge, it's spontaneous composition. The trick to being able to do all that on the fly--and the legwork you're doing now is part of that.

So in short, the arpeggios are not what you solo with, they are the roadmap that gives you options and reminds you of important notes, vanilla notes (like landing on a root-which can still be good if done correctly, mind you) and "color tones." So don't just know a "G7" arpeggio--know what the notes are, and know where raised fifths and flat nines and 13ths and #11's are in case you want to grab those as well.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Shouldn't you ask this question of your instructor, too? I'm interested in his answer.

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by Rayne

I can bring up the arpeggios and scales spontaneously, I just have a hard time doing that in a musical setting.

That's OK. You shouldn't play scales and arpeggios anyway, they're for practice. To put it another way, arpeggios and scales are not, in themselves, really music. Use them here and there and maybe most people won't notice, but if you use them all the time, the result will be totally dreary and unmusical. Instead, there's lots of good advice floating around here about how to build a solo, especially from Big Daddy LH and Mr Beaumont, sorry, mr beaumont. I don't actually agree with the latter that the melody should always be your fallback (I prefer to use the harmonic structure as the backbone) but it's a much better route than playing as if you were practising.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

I don't actually agree with the latter that the melody should always be your fallback (I prefer to use the harmonic structure as the backbone)

No, I agree with you--melody's the last line of defense--so to speak, if you "brain-fart" on the chords...

[Reg]

Hey Rayne... Once you master the tools or what to play when improvising....You need to be aware of the shape or "FORM" of what your soloing over. It can be as simple as number of bars in tune or sections of tune. Next you need to understand the harmonic rhythm of the tune... how the harmony or chords and melody function, rhythmic consideration are usually fairly simple for most. If you have trouble making quick analysis of tunes... have your teacher help or someone like... me, I can make very quick analysis of tunes and explain in musical terminology what's going on and how to approach soloing in a number of styles... There are many more on this sight who also have the skills... I've been in the music world a long time and sometimes get a little technical... it all depends on your approach. Anyway once your able to see and hear the form and how the tune functions, your able to relax and play what your now educated ear wants to play...at least not struggle... Best Reg

[Rayne]

Thanks for the responses all you jazzers, particularly yours Aristotle. I really can't express my thankfulness to you guys, I learn something new on this forum every time I log on.