difference between melodic minor and natural minor

[richb2]

A melodic minor scale is a major scale with a flatted 3. What is the formula for a regular minor scale?

[musicjohnny]

Dorian scale with a Maj 7th
or
Major scale with a flatted 3rd, 6th, and 7th degree
or
Since you already know the Mel. Minor formula, then think of a Mel Minor with a flatted 6th and 7th degree.

Hope that helps, John.

[saponsky]

1 - 2 - 3b - 4 - 5 - 6b - 7b

[cutnstuf]

And to be complete, Harmonic minor = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by richb2

A melodic minor scale is a major scale with a flatted 3. What is the formula for a regular minor scale?

it's called "natural minor" or "aeolian" .

you should also understand that "melodic minor" is 'major scale with a flatted 3' when ascending, and is the same as natural minor when descending.

in jazz, especially when used in its various modes (over V7 chords, etc), the descending form is ignored. this is jazz melodic minor, or, better still, just jazz minor.

[Sammo]

Is there any reason jazz minor is usually defined/derived from major scale?

I understand that major scale is *the* building block for almost everything else, but it makes a whole lot more sense to me think it as dorian scale with maj7 in musical context and from fingering point of view.

[richb2]

Sammo, what is the formula for a dorian?

[bako]

Originally Posted by Sammo

Is there any reason jazz minor is usually defined/derived from major scale?
I understand that major scale is *the* building block for almost everything else, but it makes a whole lot more sense to me think it as dorian scale with maj7 in musical context and from fingering point of view.

In theory there is always an established viewpoint(s) and then there are also other observable relationships.
In naming modes there are several schools of thought and consequentially several names for some modes.
One focuses on the degree function in relation to the Major degree functions and the other approach is more interested in what comparative mode is it most similar to.

Dorian major 7 seems to be most useful to lead you to fingerings if you already know Dorian fingerings well.
Any conceptual idea that leads to practical application can't be all bad. How else do you find this name useful?

For purposes of communicating with others it is also good to know the common viewpoint and naming systems.

[denis.jacquet]

I never really knew how to use the natural minor scale (aka Aeolian mode) as I almost always play dorian on minor chords including the I chords in minor tunes or the VI chords like the first one in All The Things You Are.

When do you rely on the minor scale ?

[Sammo]

Originally Posted by richb2

Sammo, what is the formula for a dorian?

1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - b7

Bako,

I guess that after years of over analysing I am kind of trying to adapt approach somewhere between Jimmy Bruno and Joe Pass with some Pat Martino/Emily Remler minorisation thrown in. So to answer

Originally Posted by bako

How else do you find this name useful?

I don't find the name anymore usefull than major scale w/flat third, but I would use and think melodic minor sound in places where I would use dorian sound too, i.e playing over ii-V7, modal minor7 or static I7 or vi-II7 or almost any II7. They are almost same to me and I need only think around minor arpeggios w/ two kinds of sevenths.

Then again I try not to think of altered scale as "jazz minor up one step" but sometimes I cannot help myself.

[richb2]

Dorian over a II7. I haven't tried that yet. I am assuming with a xII7 I am playing a dorian in the key of x. Correct?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by denis.jacquet

I never really knew how to use the natural minor scale (aka Aeolian mode) as I almost always play dorian on minor chords including the I chords in minor tunes or the VI chords like the first one in All The Things You Are.

When do you rely on the minor scale ?

Dorian is often the better choice.

The simple answer (which you seem to already know) is Aeolian (Natural minor) can work over any minor chord not functioning as a ii, but your ears and whatever comes after are the real guide.

I hardly ever "think" it, unless I'm analyzing metallica tunes with a student!

[Reg]

For some non-useful info. ... All modes from all scales have characteristic notes and resolutions(where intervals from chords created from those modes want to go). There implied even if your not aware of those notes and resolutions. There are physical reasons why we like certain harmonic movement... besides simply training our ears to become use to it. In the longer range picture... It's much better to think of Melodic Minor and its modes as MM, as with Harmonic, natural and all other scales and modes. I realize in the learning process sometimes it helps to make references to material your already aware and comfortable with... but usually what you practice becomes what you are... Best Reg

[Sammo]

Originally Posted by richb2

Dorian over a II7. I haven't tried that yet. I am assuming with a xII7 I am playing a dorian in the key of x. Correct?

Sorry, I was imprecice. I actually meant that I would use Martino/Remler minorisation over II7. So over D7 in C major I would think Am/D7 pair -- if I play A dorian notes it's equal to D mixolydian sound with natural 11 (or sus4) and if I play A jazz minor it's D7#11 sound. I like them both.

[richb2]

I am not familiar with Martino's theories, but Remler would play an A mm over the D7 if the D7 does not resolve (to a G). Otherwise she would play a D# mm (if it did resolve to a G).