Modal jazz question

[merseybeat]

Sometimes when playing modal Jazz (Say D minor). I prefer to use diminished ideas as opposed to the "First Choice" Dorian mode. i.e.

Dm7 - Em7 - FDim7 - Em7

So in fact subbing the normal FMaj7 (Found in D Dorian) with the FDim7

To my ears at least it sound much more natural! Can anyone give some theory as to why this sub works so well (Besides the Blue note) ! My theory is quite good but I admit it is full of holes here and there! And my ears have started to rule me more these days! Especially in modal jazz where the tonal center is simply just the door where I came in and will leave through when I'm done ready!

Thanks in advance!

Eddie

Eddie

[gersdal]

I'm not sure I get your question, are you playing over a modal tune in D, or over this chord progression?

Dm7 - Em7 - FDim7 - Em7
Eddie

[merseybeat]

Hi, when playing Modal Jazz improv over say a static Dm something! I always have a movement (progression of my choice) going on in my head! That's what makes modal jazz fun! It keeps it interesting! But I suppose my question works for both scenarios! But lets talk progression then! Why does that FDim7 sound so cool?

Eddie

[gersdal]

Hi, when playing Modal Jazz improv over say a static Dm something! I always have a movement (progression of my choice) going on in my head! That's what makes modal jazz fun! It keeps it interesting!

Agree, and I get it now.

To my ears at least it sound much more natural! Can anyone give some theory as to why this sub works so well (Besides the Blue note) !
Eddie

I don't have much more to offer than the blue note you are mentioning ...

[bako]

Super imposing progressions is a good tool in modal situations as well standard tunes.
It creates the context to hear certain notes that might not be understood in relation to the original harmony.
Any progression that sounds good played as chords can also be expressed melodically.

[merseybeat]

Totally agree! Since I started doing this technique I seem to have gained the approval of my peers! Simple but very effective! Still don't know why my F Dim7 sub works so well though! Ive looked at Dorian,MM & HM and its a total orphan! Even studied it as an E7b9. Guess its just one of those things! Defo that blues note (Dorian b5) or a Doriolian (I thought this was the car in back to the future!)which If I remember is the 2nd mode of a C Bebop Major! Anyone else??

Eddie

[IbanezAS100]

I think the Fdim7 works so well (it's a classic sub for tonic chords) is because essentially you're side-slipping (the tonic) chord tones.In terms of tonic Dm7, you have F-Ab-B-D, so you're side-slipping the 5th and 7th. In terms of relative major, you're side-slipping the 3rd and 5th.

The same idea works nicely with triads a semitone below as well, e.g. for a modal Dm7, playing a Db triad over D bass (the D/Eb or Dmaj7 sharp9 sharp 11 found in 'Round Midnight is a classic example). Or E/F for relative major.
Or any of the triads from the D/F diminished scale (Db,E,G,Bb).

A cool trick (borrowed by pianists) is to enclose the Dm7 with triads above and below (from the dim.scale) e.g. E, Dd, Dm7 or G and E for Fmaj7. Great for a bit of 'outside' spice over extended modal vamps.

Anyway, hope this helps...

[merseybeat]

Thanks Ibanez. That is some quality information man! Perfect sense now!
I also see that Db/D is defining the D MM scale! If that Db/D was a Db7/D = Db7b9 = D Dim7 = F Dim7 and so on! Also Db Altered scale = D MM etc.! Thanks mate good stuff!

Eddie

[IbanezAS100]

Pleasure....just a minor correction, the Round Midnight chord is an Eb maj7 #9#11, not D as I wrote above (it's the tonic/diminished sub after all)..

Best,
Themis

[Reg]

Hey mercybeat... Our ears are so use to hearing modal music, that it not necessary to pound out the characteristic notes, intervals and resolutions which imply a mode. Were pre-programed and in your example of modal interchange,(same root and different collection of notes above), which is one of the main components of jazz, both harmonically and melodically, your simple hearing standard jazz harmony. What do you hear as the rest or complete vertical structure above the F (fdim). Hey Ibanez how do you get Dmaj7#9#11 from D/Eb. I'm aware of 6th degree of Har. Maj, which also has one of the rare #5's. Or are you simple spelling from sym. Dim. and spelling as though implied... Best Reg

[JohnW400]

Dmaj7#9#11 from D/Eb.Best Reg

I think he means a D triad over an Eb triad.

D
Eb

Rather than D with and Eb bass

[IbanezAS100]

Hey mercybeat... Our ears are so use to hearing modal music, that it not necessary to pound out the characteristic notes, intervals and resolutions which imply a mode. Were pre-programed and in your example of modal interchange,(same root and different collection of notes above), which is one of the main components of jazz, both harmonically and melodically, your simple hearing standard jazz harmony. What do you hear as the rest or complete vertical structure above the F (fdim). Hey Ibanez how do you get Dmaj7#9#11 from D/Eb. I'm aware of 6th degree of Har. Maj, which also has one of the rare #5's. Or are you simple spelling from sym. Dim. and spelling as though implied... Best Reg

That was meant to say Eb maj7 sharp 9 sharp 5, not D (see correction above) and it refers to the specific chord in Round Midnight as an example.
You're right about the 6th degree of Harm.Min, it would give you the same type of chord (some people call it Lydian sharp 9). The characteristic notes in that voicing (sharp 9, sharp 11) would give it a diminished character and it works very nicely as a sub for a tonic chord.

Hope that helps

[IbanezAS100]

I think he means a D triad over an Eb triad.

D
Eb

Rather than D with and Eb bass

i did mean that for the Eb maj7 sharp 9, sharp 11 chord, thanks
In a modal context though, just D triad superimposed over a D tonality creates the desired (diminished) sound, as in the OP.

To clarify, a triad a semitone below from minor ( Db/D) will give a diminished sound (b5, maj7 tensions)

Semitone away from major (in this case E/F) gives us either a dim sound, or the 6th degree of Harm.Min (which contains the dim.chord anyway).

Hope that's clearer (and what the OP intended)...

[merseybeat]

Were pre-programed and in your example of modal interchange,(same root and different collection of notes above), which is one of the main components of jazz, both harmonically and melodically, your simple hearing standard jazz harmony. What do you hear as the rest or complete vertical structure above the F (fdim). ... Best Reg

Good question! Once Ive established the Fdim I go where I feel! But one of my favourites is Dm7 - Em7 - F Dim7 - Fm7 - Gm7 - Abdim7 - Abm7 -Bbm7 - Bdim7 ...etc. (See the minor 3rd shifts all held together nicely by Fdim7 and its brother inversions)

Weird I know but as long as I create a good sense of symetrical movement and bring it home occasionally It works well!

Another may be Dm7 - Em7 - Fdim7 - Em7 - BbMaj7 - A7b13

Or for a slightly rougher cadence

Dm7 - Em7 - Fdim7 - Em7 - Bb7 - A7b13


Eddie

[Reg]

Hey Eddie thanks... I was referring to rest of vertical notes in you Fdim7 chord. That would show what your actually hearing and would make things simple. Hey Ibanez thanks for reply and clarifications .. Yea...I always hear complete vertical structure, even when not played. Both Har.Maj and Har. Min have dim. structures. So in reference to the ending monk chord, from voicing Ebtriad over Dtriad and calling it a root Eb chord... you have Eb,F#,G,A,Bb,D... your Ebma7#9#11, only question is what is the 13, C, which would imply bVImaj from HM, which is typ Modal interchange and very characteristic of music from time. Anyway many versions of dim chords... thanks for getting back guys... good topic... Best Reg

[merseybeat]

Reg! Sorry, I am referring to the notes contained in these mental progressions and or their embellishments! Would be very interested to know where you go from that Fdim7?

Regards

Eddie

[Lawn Boy]

I think the answer to your original question is much simpler and has to do the nature of diminished 7 chords which are usually transitional or approach chords. The Fdim7 is an approach chord to the Em7 in the same way that a passing diminished 7 descends to a minor target in a diatonic progression, e.g. Em7-Ebdim7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7. The chromatic movement of the Root and b3 of diminished chord to the Root and b3 of the minor target creates a pull to that target.
It's possible to over-cook the analysis when trying to explain why a certain harmony catches our ears.
In this case, I think it's a simple case of voice-leading.


Take care, Lawn Boy

[merseybeat]

Lawn Boy

Im well cooked mate! Overdone in fact! But yes your very correct!

Thanks

Eddie

[jeffstocksmusic]

Check out George Garzone's Triadic Chromatic Approach. It has fairly profound modal implications in terms of stretching the harmony.

Of course it does take years to really get down, apparently.

[Reg]

Hey Eddie... I rarely use Dim. chords... only when someone else wants them, or chart calls for. They always sound like... well I couldn't find what I was looking for. When I do play through, usually from HM. Many years ago I used to use sequences in dim.3rds, 4ths etc for sources of stretching harmonic areas both comping and soloing. It also really depends on gig... for most audiences... well I don't have Michael Brecker fans. Best Reg

[orasnon]

Merseybeat: can you please spell out the FDim7 scale you're mentioning? I'd like to hear exactly what sound you are referring to, and I'm new to jazz improv. Thanks so much!