Melodic Minor and Diminished Scale

[Sandro]

I am dealing with this two scale for quite some time now, and I would love to ear from you guys when you use the MM and when you use the Dim.

Thanks

Sandro

[derek]

You might want to run a search. There have been lots of good conversations about using these two scales.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I'm suspicious when a chord progression has a diminished seventh written into it. The chord often makes more sense as a 7b9 chord, so I don't automatically reach for a diminished scale over it. For example, Wave starts off:

| DMaj7 | Bbdim7 | Amin7 | D7 | GMaj7 | ...

That Bbdim7 sounds like a A7b9 to me. Sounds like a job for D HM. So diminished scale, not so much, but diminished arps are always welcome.

[jeffstritt]

Here is the basic idea for Melodic Minor, and keep in mind this is JUST the BASIC idea...

1. Over any minor chord or vamp. (Dorian scale with a leading tone to the tonic.)

2. Up a half step over any Altered Dominant chord. (For instance, Ab Melodic Minor over a G7 Altered becomes the G Superlocrian (Altered) scale).

3. Up a fifth from a non resolving Dominant Chord. (For instance, F Melodic Minor over a Bb7 in a Bb blues. F Melodic Minor becomes Bb Lydian Dominant).

That should give you some MM stuff to think about.

[Patrick Brown]

There is the 'whole step half step' scale, and there is the 'half step whole step'
I can easily play either, at least vertically,,need to work on remembering the caged version, but,,,,,one of these, IMS, is the diminished scale proper. Which one is the diminished scale? I forget. They both pass, in minor thirds, with scale tones on the diminished chord. Just curious.

PS I think it's the whole step half step,,just wanted to be sure.

[richb2]

Originally Posted by jeffstritt

Here is the basic idea for Melodic Minor, and keep in mind this is JUST the BASIC idea...

1. Over any minor chord or vamp. (Dorian scale with a leading tone to the tonic.)

2. Up a half step over any Altered Dominant chord. (For instance, Ab Melodic Minor over a G7 Altered becomes the G Superlocrian (Altered) scale).

3. Up a fifth from a non resolving Dominant Chord. (For instance, F Melodic Minor over a Bb7 in a Bb blues. F Melodic Minor becomes Bb Lydian Dominant).

That should give you some MM stuff to think about.

This is the standard MM usage that Remler talks about a lot. I have been reading that people also use it half a step lower than the Dominant chord. Have you tried that?

[Reg]

MM has seven chords, complete chords, all tones. There are tons of tunes where the chords are from MM. Do your home work... that being said... the three dominant chords, built on the 4th, 5th and 7th degrees, can be used anywhere they fit. The 4th degree version, lyd. b7 has been beat into the ground for years, but our ears expect it. Typically used as sub V, 1/2 step resolution down to just about any chord. To minor...Night in Tunisia, millions of latin tunes , Ab7#11, G7alt, C-, bVI7#11, V7alt., I-... anyway to any typical dominant or sub-dominant function or resolution. Even when the melody doesn't permit... you can always play just about anything on weak side of harmonic rhythm... The 5th is standard V chord, (with b13), Our ears are so use to hearing the V7 alt chord from HM or 7th degree of MM, the actual alt. chord , V7b13 is almost simple heard as voicing of. The actual Alt. chord built from 7th degree can be used almost always to min. chords, and carefully to the rest. Many play between the two chords built on the 4th degree and 7th degree, for example going to D-... pull from Eb7#11 and A7 alt.. helps create harmonic movement. I use that approach to all chords... but on some tunes I stay, again.. more on the weak side of harmonic rhythm, so as not to create to much tension... As far as the I-maj chord... I use all the time along with bIIImaj#5 in min. blues to approach the IV chord, or when ever there's space on any min. chord, I create movement to help create pulse. You can play I-maj7, bIIImaj7#5, VII7alt to I-... You can sequence MM chords and approach from 1/2 step below or 1/2 step above. Context always tells you where, or in what part of harmonic rhythmic of tune. Dim. has similar applications, but always sound to mechanical to me personally, remember... there are three sources for dim. chords, not just symmetrical. If you want a detailed example, try and pick a tune and I'll show ways to approach, using MM.... Best Reg

[Sandro]

Thank Reg a lot of informations, about the tune let's say Stella by starlight.

Sandro

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Patrick Brown

There is the 'whole step half step' scale, and there is the 'half step whole step'
I can easily play either, at least vertically,,need to work on remembering the caged version, but,,,,,one of these, IMS, is the diminished scale proper. Which one is the diminished scale? I forget. They both pass, in minor thirds, with scale tones on the diminished chord. Just curious.

PS I think it's the whole step half step,,just wanted to be sure.

That's right. The C diminished scale is:

C D Eb F Gb G# A B C

[Patrick Brown]

Thanks much BidDaddy,,,just makin' sure.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

That's right. The C diminished scale is:

C D Eb F Gb G# A B C

Thats funny I thought that Cdim. was C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bbb or
C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bbb... just having fun Best Reg

[Reg]

Hey Sandro... cool ...I dig Stella , I have gig today, I'll write out a few approaches when i get back.... just for info... the Dim scales I was making reference to were from HarMin and Harmaj, the dim. scale or symmetrical Dim. was spelled by BDLH. Best Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Reg

Thats funny I thought that Cdim. was C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bbb or
C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bbb... just having fun Best Reg

Kidding aside, I know that both versions (whole half etc... and half whole etc...) get called "the" diminished scale, just to confuse things, but the W-H-W-H-W-H-W-H version is the one that fits the dim7 chord, and is usually the one meant in a jazz context.

On the other hand, I've never learned the "correct" enharmonic note choices for writing the scale. I just use whatever comes to mind first. Is there an official scale spelling? What scale note gets reused (because it an octal scale)? I'm scared they'll be double sharps and double flats!

[Meggy]

I am working on the melodic minor and diminished scales also. I use the melodic minor over minor-major 7th type chords (also minor 6 type chords sometimes). Then there is the Lydian Dominant (4th mode of the MM) for dominant 7th chords, and 7b5 (or 7#11) type chords. Or the Altered scale (7th mode of the MM, aka "super-locrian") for altered dominant chords. Plus you have the 6th mode of the MM for minor 7b5 type chords (sometimes called the half-diminished" scale).

I am influenced by the idea of Emily Remler to use MM up a half step for a resolving dominant 7th (i.e. a V-I type progression) which is the 7th mode/super-locrian, and use the MM up a 5th for non-resolving dominant 7ths (i.e. the lydian-dominant mode). Another neat thing is that if you work out your minor-major 7th/9th/11th/13th arpeggio shapes for each position, these sound great over any of the chord types I mention - so you can get away with only learning one or two arpeggio shapes for each position.

As to the diminished - I guess diminished chords obviously, but also nice for 7b9 chords (that is the "half-whole" scale really).

Overall, I find the melodic minor is a fantastic way of opening up the ears and getting a lot of those more modern jazz sounds happening.