Learning to Improvise

[NiGlCh]

Hey Guys,
I have been playing guitar for a few years now but I still find myself struggling when it comes to improvisation. In all honesty, I'm still not sure I know how exactly to approach it. I bought a copy of Single Note Soloing by Ted Greene and I'm a bit overwhelmed. Most of the book is just run after run that you supposed to memorize. There is lots of great information in the book but I'm just not sure how to practice/use it.
When you were first learning how to improvise what did you do? Is it just a matter of spending hours memorizing arpeggios and scales (and which is more important)? If so, how did you memorize them so that they stuck in your head enough so that you could pull out something different over every chord? While playing over a tune, I find it hard to keep track of everything in my head and transitioning smoothly between chords is very difficult for me. I just feel like I'm learning how to do it the wrong way... or maybe only having time to practice 45 minutes a day is just not cutting it.

[mr. beaumont]

I really feel, no matter if you use arpeggios or scales or whatever as your road map, you can't improvise well over a tune until you know it, chords and melody, pretty damn well.

If you find your brain sending messages like "shit, what's the next chord?" then you don't know that tune well enough yet, no matter what vehicle you'll be using for improv.

[derek]

I am of the opinion that one needs to start as simply as possible. I use the 12 bar blues to teach improv early on to students, because the blues tends to be very expressive and feel based. We start out using the old pentatonic minor over the whole thing. We listen to the greats, how they will take one idea, repeat and develop it over the 12 bars.

From there, changing scales, triads, arpeggios to match the chord of the moment, still keeping an eye on playing and developing simple ideas. Then moving on to real tunes, learning the melody well, and improvising on the melody. Combining the above ideas gets you going pretty well imo, and doesn't require a ton of knowledge.

[franco6719]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I really feel, no matter if you use arpeggios or scales or whatever as your road map, you can't improvise well over a tune until you know it, chords and melody, pretty damn well.

If you find your brain sending messages like "shit, what's the next chord?" then you don't know that tune well enough yet, no matter what vehicle you'll be using for improv.

That's exactly the key I think. Dump the Real Books, if you use them in the first place, as soon as possible. Internalize, internalize, internalize. It takes patience, because sometimes you grow tired of a tune or you want to just "jam"" over another. But don't learn 50 tunes "just enough" to be able to survive them. Learn one tune to the point that you really do hear every chord change before it happens and eventually you will start to see or feel the connections between arpeggios, patterns, scales and so on.

[andy4297]

I think it helps you a lot if you listen a lot of jazz(that worked for me). Youre ideas will come easier when you improvise.
It's true that you have to know well the scales first and then you will feel confident improvising.

[Jazzaluk]

Try starting with the melody. Pick a tune with good melodic content.

Memorize the melody and learn to play it very well.

Experiment with the phrasing, which will add expression and suggest new notes that can be added. Start to add embellishments and small variations and allow yourself to stray from the melody.

As you progress, problems will arise. This is the time to start analyzing the progression and referring to the underling chords. Look for moving lines between chords, arpeggios etc. to generate new ideas. (I prefer to let the melody teach me the chord progression rather than vice versa. I find that 90% of melodies written fit perfectly over the chords. The chords are probably wrong in the other 10%)

This process will help you to really internalize the tune, and reinforce structure and coherence in your solo. With time and patience, your ideas and abilities will naturally lead you further from the melody, but you will always retain a solid reference point.

It might be a bit "old school" for modern players, but it works for the good old trusty standards.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by franco6719

That's exactly the key I think. Dump the Real Books, if you use them in the first place, as soon as possible..

well, just so the OP is clear, that's definitely not what I meant.

Real Books are a valuable tool. Just don't treat them as absolute truth, they're a supplement, and no replacement for your ears. there's no one right way to play a jazz tune.

[franco6719]

No, that's not what I meant either, actually, Mr. B. It looks like I was saying "Don't use Real/fake books." Not at all!! All I meant that it is very important to learn many single tunes very deeply (chords and melody) to the point that you don't need to look at the book (assuming that you learned the tune that way) after a certain point. It is better, IMO, to learn a few tunes deeply than a lot of tunes superficially.

[Goofsus4]

Wire it in small blocks. That helped me tremendously. Instead of trying to improvise over a whole song or section, try just spending an hour a day improvising over a ii V I loop. Then, when you start getting the hang of that, then try making subs to that, i.e. ii9, Valt, I and so on. Then practice improvising over that. Take one single chord, and run lines over it for a solid hour. Try to make distinct melodic phrases that go somewhere and resolve to targeted chord tones (1,2,5,7). Play all over the neck. Try double stops and chordal fragments. Incorporate chromatics. Sure, use arps and scales you know, but don't get too hung up in "which scale fits what chord" just try to let your mind and ear guide you someplace and try to play what you hear in your head. If it doesn't work, you'll likely be off by just a half step, so just slide or hammer back to the note you really wanted and keep going. Try coming up with original melodies over a simple ii V I - try to make a song out of that melody. Embellish that melody, and so on.

The point of this is that you start getting your brain wired so that when you see a maj7, m7, or dom7 that you just "know" how to make a line over it. Then begin doing the same thing with diminished chords, and melodic extensions of chords you already know (9,11,13).

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by NiGlCh

Hey Guys,
I have been playing guitar for a few years now but I still find myself struggling when it comes to improvisation. In all honesty, I'm still not sure I know how exactly to approach it. I bought a copy of Single Note Soloing by Ted Greene and I'm a bit overwhelmed. Most of the book is just run after run that you supposed to memorize. There is lots of great information in the book but I'm just not sure how to practice/use it.
When you were first learning how to improvise what did you do? Is it just a matter of spending hours memorizing arpeggios and scales (and which is more important)? If so, how did you memorize them so that they stuck in your head enough so that you could pull out something different over every chord? While playing over a tune, I find it hard to keep track of everything in my head and transitioning smoothly between chords is very difficult for me. I just feel like I'm learning how to do it the wrong way... or maybe only having time to practice 45 minutes a day is just not cutting it.

I have the Ted Greene books too, and find them quite useful. I don't think you have to remember all, or even most, of the runs! There are also a heck of a lot of arpeggio diagrams as well. Ted just had a brain which worked like that it seems, but I do think you can learn useful things from his general approach. I have found for myself it is useful to take say seven scale shapes (assuming a seven note scale type) to cover the neck, and maybe learn 3 or so key arppegio shapes for each. Also, I like to work out as many related chord forms as I can for each scale area. I started out trying to learn a lot of the licks, but now find these are better viewed as examples of what is possible. I kind of use the books as reference material, and feel free to modify things a bit to suit my own purposes. Kind of a simplified Ted Green approach maybe!

[CliveR]

Try 'Exploring Jazz Guitar' by Phil Capone. Its an excellent book, but expect to have to put in a lot of work on your scales and arps !

[franco6719]

Did you say "Al Capone"?

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by NiGlCh

When you were first learning how to improvise what did you do? Is it just a matter of spending hours memorizing arpeggios and scales (and which is more important)? If so, how did you memorize them so that they stuck in your head enough so that you could pull out something different over every chord? While playing over a tune, I find it hard to keep track of everything in my head and transitioning smoothly between chords is very difficult for me. I just feel like I'm learning how to do it the wrong way... or maybe only having time to practice 45 minutes a day is just not cutting it.

Hi again, thought I'd just chip in with a few more thoughts! For one thing, I think jazz improvising is quite a challenge, to put it mildly, so it's likely to be something you continue to work and develop at for years (and years and years... ). I think that yes, you do have to spend some time memorizing shapes for scales and arpeggios (although perhaps it's better to keep it a lot simpler than Ted Greene sometimes does in his books). But I think an absolute key thing to realise is that you have to hear in your head the sound of the scales/arppegios/runs or whatever, and how these relate to the chord sounds you are soloing over. What I'm saying is that you have to hear an idea in your head first. By practicing, and noodling around/varying/playing with, the various scales/arppegios/runs, you will start to get their sounds into your head. As this progresses, you get better at coming up with ideas, as well as actually being able to play them of course. It's a gradual thing, but the brain/ears must be developed in tandem with the fingers/dexterity/shape memory stuff. I always think that if you can't hear it, you won't play it. Jazz is about communicating something from inside, not just connecting lots patterns in a computational kind of way.

When it comes to Ted's runs, yes there are rather a lot of them - he's trying to get the sounds into your head (and under your fingers) by putting so many in. But don't try to memorise too many of them - if something seems to stick, or you just seem to like it's sound, then maybe that is a good one to go for. Listen to lots of jazz as well - you will start to absorb the sounds in a natural way - try to figure out some of the things you hear that you like - you will find these fit some of the scale types you are studying.

Just a personal view, but I'm not too keen on the 3 types of Altered Dominant scale Ted introduces in book 1 - not that there is anything wrong with them, but maybe a needless complication at first. The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine (as advertised on this website) says that very nearly every chord (and pretty much all the ones in 'standard' jazz IMO) can be handled with just 4 scale types: Major (and some of it's modes), Melodic minor (and some of it's modes), whole tone, and diminished (both the half-whole, and whole-half versions). I'm paraphrasing, but I think this is true. So learn these scale types first. Learning to improvise is a huge task, so you really have to prioritise, and justify, what you work on. I guess once you can handle all the common chord types you are likely to encounter, then you are in a position to start working on some more things (I'm not! ).

I am not speaking as an expert, just someone who has been working from Ted's books, and other things also, for several years - well maybe 20 years in total LOL! but Ted's in particular for a year and a half. Things do start to get better over time. As to the connecting thing, I have found it useful to focus on a single chord change, say a V-I and practice moving from one fingering area to another, working on resolving the last note played in the first scale to the first note of the second scale. Some things sound better than others, so it's good to get these better sounds into your head.

But it is amazing I think, how the brain works, and with practice, good things do start to happen - even things you don't seem to have worked on! which is great. I've waffled on for long enough - as I say, I'm not an expert, but I hope maybe this might help you to avoid a few misconceptions and use your time well.

[Dark Star]

Somewhere on YouTube are excerpts from a John Scofield clinic in which he echoes a lot of what has been said here, that improvisation is really just a "speeded up composition", & putting together on the fly things that you already know through rote memorization.
Drilling scales, modes, & chords, & listening a lot to the kind of music you want to play will one day produce that music in your head & give you the ability to make it come through your fingers & out of your instrument.

[NiGlCh]

Thanks a lot for all of the feedback. There is lots of good advice here and I have definitely found it helpful. I guess the main point here is that it all just takes a lot of time, patience, and practice akin to learning a new language. Perhaps some more time dedicated to practicing each day may be all I need.

[cnsky54]

Some great replies above that I am going to use to improve what I improvise. If I may also suggest a rather simplistic sounding idea for this forum, I have been reading in the Idiot's Guide to Improvisitation (yes, they wrote a guide for it) and it has many useful thoughts involving the use of different rhythms, accents, modifications of melodies. A lot of my attempts to improvise on the fly sound a lot like running scales up and down, and using some of these Idiot ideas have broken up the scalar sound and started to resemble a decent solo. I still work on the jazz scales and arps, but adding in some simple inflections add colour.

[Meggy]

I think part of the "thing" with improvising is that, as I said before, you need to have ideas and sounds which come from inside as you play (and these must relate to the chord structure also obviously, which you must also be able to hear/anticipate). But when we are starting out, we have just not got that stream of ideas happening, because we have yet to train our minds, and absorb all the sounds we need, let alone develop the finger/brain dexterity to play them. So instead we run up and down scale fingerings, or play patterns, or whatever. It can sound rather mechanical I think. In Ted Greene's books he includes a lot of jazz runs, largely I think, to show how scales/arpeggios (sometimes with other devices like grace notes/passing tones etc.) can relate to melodic ideas which sound more interesting. He's trying to show you how you can make meaningful jazz from all this stuff.

After a while, we start to get the sounds into our sytem, and they emerge naturally,and in a more musical way somehow - even the patterns and scalar stuff is used musically, because it's coming from inside, and magically, it all starts to become a means of self-expression - something of ourselves (our thoughts, feelings, personality) gets thrown in to the mix! The danger is that we can get stuck in the mechanical phase, and not learn to translate what we have learned into a musical context - probably this should be done as early as possible. It's too easy just to sit with a metronome, working on patterns/scales for hours - instead record some chords to a song, and try to find ways to use the scales etc. to make a musical solo. Just some of my own ideas about this though, feel free to disagree folks.

[Reg]

Meggy..great points and I agree and also have been teaching for years... what you practice is what you'll become good at. The magic thing... I'm not sure, but it's fun. You always have great prospective, as do many on this sight... Thanks Reg

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by Reg

Meggy..great points and I agree and also have been teaching for years... what you practice is what you'll become good at. The magic thing... I'm not sure, but it's fun. You always have great prospective, as do many on this sight... Thanks Reg

Kind of you to say so Reg, and I do agree there is a lot to be gained from people on this site. As to the "magic" thing, perhaps I can agree with you that there is no real magic involved (or any other supernatural occurance for that matter!). Maybe it would be better put as a "sum is more than the parts" kind of thing?

[Reg]

Maybe it would be better put as a "sum is more than the parts" kind of thing?[/quote]
I was OK with the magic, but that's a delightful expression ...Best Reg