The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenbennett
    All 4ths might make playing Wes-style octaves a little easier. They would all be 2 frets apart.

    That's the least of it IMO. Major advantages from my perspective after 27 years in std followed by 17 years in 4ths (yea, I'm old):

    A head in one key is easily transposed to any other key because the layout is the same...unless one moves off the fretboard of course. 18 years ago while suffering from an STD, Standard Tuning Disease , I was very frustrated from not being able to easily switch keys playing the "Donna Lee" head. That got me thinking about standard tuning, its deficiencies, and the possibilities of something better.

    Other advantages...
    Chord shapes are constant...don't have to learn 3 versions. Constructing chords is also easier because the layout is consistent.

    The mapping of the fretboard makes intervals constant. There is no adjusting for the 'B' string effect.

    Arpeggios look the same in all keys. etc. etc. etc.



    Folks, standard tuning was not ordained by God nor will your first born be taken if you go to fourths. You may be shunned but you will comforted by your new found purity and goodness.

    Come to the light...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Listen to Alex Hutchings and Tom Quayle. Both of them are excelent guitar players, and both use the 4ths tuning.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4thstuning
    ...
    27 years in std followed by 17 years in 4ths
    ...
    How did it happen?

    How long did it take to make the transition?

    Were you playing full time?

    If so, did you practice in 4ths by day and play in standard by night?

    Or did you just stop playing standard, learn how to play all over again in 4ths, then carry on?

    Do you play other styles besides jazz?

    If so, was there anything you couldn't do anymore?

  5. #54

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    How did it happen?
    - I saw a light and went to it

    How long did it take to make the transition?
    - about a year.

    Were you playing full time?
    - no, I had a day gig I affectionately named "work"

    If so, did you practice in 4ths by day and play in standard by night?
    - no, day was reserved for "work" and what few remaining night time hours my wife and young child left me were frittered away on 4ths tuning.

    Or did you just stop playing standard, learn how to play all over again in 4ths, then carry on?
    - yes. However I simultaneously joined a community college big band whose entire horn section consisted of North Texas lab band alumni, as was the band leader. Did I mention I was a poor reader then too? Man, that was an experience

    Do you play other styles besides jazz?
    - not any more.
    - FWIW I started out on classical piano. Then migrated to guitar: folk -> blues -> rock -> fusion -> classical -> jazz

    If so, was there anything you couldn't do anymore?
    - not for my purposes, there were always workarounds or substitutes. If inclined to do other types of music, I could so using this tuning.
    - Although there are very few 4ths tuning practitioners, YouTube does reveal a variety of styles using that tuning.
    - having said that, other genres often have signature licks that are due to the peculiarities of std tuning. These would no longer be available in 4ths but new licks will open up.

    If one's goal is to sound just like everyone else, one should tune as everyone else does. That's just not my goal.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4thstuning
    How did it happen?
    - I saw a light and went to it

    How long did it take to make the transition?
    - about a year.

    Were you playing full time?
    - no, I had a day gig I affectionately named "work"

    If so, did you practice in 4ths by day and play in standard by night?
    - no, day was reserved for "work" and what few remaining night time hours my wife and young child left me were frittered away on 4ths tuning.

    Or did you just stop playing standard, learn how to play all over again in 4ths, then carry on?
    - yes. However I simultaneously joined a community college big band whose entire horn section consisted of North Texas lab band alumni, as was the band leader. Did I mention I was a poor reader then too? Man, that was an experience

    Do you play other styles besides jazz?
    - not any more.
    - FWIW I started out on classical piano. Then migrated to guitar: folk -> blues -> rock -> fusion -> classical -> jazz

    If so, was there anything you couldn't do anymore?
    - not for my purposes, there were always workarounds or substitutes. If inclined to do other types of music, I could so using this tuning.
    - Although there are very few 4ths tuning practitioners, YouTube does reveal a variety of styles using that tuning.
    - having said that, other genres often have signature licks that are due to the peculiarities of std tuning. These would no longer be available in 4ths but new licks will open up.

    If one's goal is to sound just like everyone else, one should tune as everyone else does. That's just not my goal.
    Man, thanks for those answers. I think it's fascinating. I'm not surprised that it took a year. That shows a lot of dedication. You must have also had the vision that it would all work out.

    When I did the switch from 4ths to 5ths on bass it only took 2 weeks. But that was practicing all day long every day. And since bass parts are usually one note at a time, chord forms were not much of an issue.

    As far as sounding the same or different from everyone else, I think that's just something that some people develop and some don't. Maybe it's a trait of personality. Non-standard tuning is definitely an element of individual identity for some guitarists. But many who are clearly identifiable always played in standard tuning.

    You sound good in your videos. You have a unique sound that comes through even on different guitars. It's the tone. The individuality of your sound comes more from the way you pick than the tuning. You would still sound like yourself in standard tuning. But after 17 years, and considering the benefits that you attribute to the 4ths, there is no reason to switch back now.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenbennett
    The individuality of your sound comes more from the way you pick than the tuning. You would still sound like yourself in standard tuning.
    Thanks for the compliment.

    Those videos are demonstrations of a new (to me) conceptual approach to solo/chord melody playing. The goal, crudely stated, was to emulate my mental model of a three fingered pianist who could only improvise using bass notes, single lines, intervals, and triads to suggest a whole piece. I was not interested in chord melody playing per se, but something less restrictive and more fluid and spontaneous.

    The other thing I wanted to do was free myself from being stuck in a particular key. That's why I improvised most (not all) of those pieces in both non-standard and multiple keys. The overall goal of course is freedom, whatever that means

    If I'd stayed in std tuning, I probably wouldn't be able to play that way at all because of the mapping issue. Certainly I wouldn't have been able to make the key switches. That's not saying others can't or don't, just that I have limits. So recognizing my limits, I decided to make the fretboard more user friendly and eliminate it as an obstacle to growth. For me it was a good decision and I've never looked back.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitaRoland
    ...why change the way it's supposed to be done?...
    Good evening, GuitaRoland...
    I would want to see sources for this (Jazz Police? Segovia?...). No big fight being looked for, and respect, but in many guitar styles, open tunings of all sorts are just as 'normal' (the list is long, but pedal steel, Hawaiian, country, folk... come to mind...). I also subscribe to the 'it's your guitar; beat it with wet sausages if that's what you like' school. I repeat, I don't wish to offend; it's just my 'anarchist rebel' instinct...
    (No, please don't experiment with sausages; it spoils the finish. Just a figure of speech...)
    (That said, you can if you want..!)

  9. #58

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    I think it's a great idea -- if you don't have to play rock and pop. Tuning B to C and high E to F messes up all the common barre chords.

    Someone mentioned him earlier, but back when finger-tapping stylist Stanley Jordan was a relative unknown I was able to try his Travis Bean solid body electric, and it was indeed tuned in fourths as above. He told me it meant he could tap the same chord shapes anywhere on the neck and get the same exact voicings and harmonies. That made an awful lot of sense to me for his style.

    On another note, I only recently learned that our standard tuning began at the same time -- around 1500 I think -- that 6 strings became the norm. It was considered the most convenient setup to facilitate fingering.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeFever
    I think it's a great idea -- if you don't have to play rock and pop. Tuning B to C and high E to F messes up all the common barre chords.
    Quayle and Hutchings mentioned at the top of this page are of the rock/pop style and they play great. Check 'em out, I think they'll change your mind. Personally I don't see any genre limits to 4ths tuning.

  11. #60

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    I've got to see video of them to understand this, because I'm sitting here and trying some of the resulting new shapes, and some of these are rather usual for jazz forms, but some are now a real reach -- full barre 7#9 (on top), one I use a lot, ouch!

    Otherwise, I always knew I was a lazy player!

  12. #61

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    Is your issue with the tuning more to do with chordal work? If so, check out this humble vid of mine where I do a lot of chordal work for the tune "I Hear a Rhapsody".



    Going to fourths requires learning new grips. It may seem these grips don't exist but I can testify that they do and work great because it's a coherent and consistent system.

  13. #62
    This is all very interesting, and now has me thinking if there has ever been a piano that has been altered to look more symmetrical which would make changing keys easier?.....

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    ...a piano that has been altered to look more symmetrical which would make changing keys easier?...
    Good evening, princeplanet...
    More than common in France (and other parts of Europe...) are 'button' keyboards; accordions, organs, synths or Midi controllers; in fact 'piano' keyboards would be rather the exception. It make transposing very easy. Incidently, the left-hand keyboard is pre-established chords (Maj, Min, 7th...); with one button the chord is played, by adding the appropriate second button extensions can be played.
    Hope this helps...

  15. #64

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    Guitar Roland said: I can't see the advantage of this - what is the advantage? Playing guitar is hard enough - why change the way it's supposed to be done?

    I must be getting to the fuddy-duudy stage, but I gotta agree. The tradition is what is exciting to me....a 6 string archtop tuned "normally" accompanied by a bass that has 4 strings. All of the reading, the books, the recordings of the masters...it's all for E A D G B E. I really don't even want to hear a 7 string guitar or 5 string bass! I have trouble enough of a life-long challenge with 6 strings! One of my favorite guitarists is Peter Bernstein...he is one of the few that I feel has a really recognizable voice....that's all I want....to be in the tradition (eg 6 strings tuned normally) and work towards developing my own voice.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfunhouse
    Guitar Roland said: I can't see the advantage of this - what is the advantage? Playing guitar is hard enough - why change the way it's supposed to be done?

    I must be getting to the fuddy-duudy stage, but I gotta agree. The tradition is what is exciting to me....a 6 string archtop tuned "normally" accompanied by a bass that has 4 strings. All of the reading, the books, the recordings of the masters...it's all for E A D G B E. I really don't even want to hear a 7 string guitar or 5 string bass! I have trouble enough of a life-long challenge with 6 strings! One of my favorite guitarists is Peter Bernstein...he is one of the few that I feel has a really recognizable voice....that's all I want....to be in the tradition (eg 6 strings tuned normally) and work towards developing my own voice.
    IMO the only point in changing tuning systems is to make things easier. After almost three decades of std tuning experience and close to two of 4ths, I've come to the personal conclusion that a symmetrical tuning system does simplify things without reducing possibilities and therefore should at least be discussed.

    Reading your statement above, it seems important that the jazz guitar tradition include the music, the instrument, and its standard configuration. Those three elements as a whole create the framework within which one properly seeks an individual voice. These are beliefs that are shared comfortably with the vast majority of players...who are also searching for their own recognizable voices...on the same confusing fretboard....using the same grips and licks.

    For me however, the tradition is the music which transcends both the instrument and its tuning. It is either jazz or it isn't. In my view one can play anything and everything as long as the music works...so the question is if one chooses to play guitar, why let the guitar map be confounding as opposed to clarifying? It turns out that a note is a note regardless of tuning system.

    I'm also a fan of Bernstein, amongst others.

  17. #66
    EADGCF... JUST A REVOLUTION FOR ME !!!
    This is SO logical et practical !
    Try this and you will never regret !
    You just need 2-3 weeks of work... and after, no more headhaches !

  18. #67
    I guess I will put my two cents inot this thread since I am a college student who plays in all fourths tuning. I have played in all 4th tuning for 10 years now. My first teacher, who oddly enough was a 6 string bassist, showed me this way of tuning and yes you lose a lot of open chord voicing but in the long run for improvising it opens many doors because it makes the guitar fretboard symmetrical. However, it takes a lot of time to get used to the feel and shift of the top two strings if you've been playing standard your whole life. I can't play standard and nor do I want to. All 4th tuning is surely not for everyone. It involves a lot of thinking and fretboard knowledge. But again, this is only my opinion. I've seen people try and play in all 4th like me and they fail and I tried playing in standard and I fail. To each there own. Hope anyone found this helpful.

  19. #68

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    ^^^ That reminds me of a story.

    Once upon a time, certain people had the notion that the language of the Garden of Eden was the original, or "natural" language of humans. We were born with a knowledge of this language that was overwritten by learning our parents' tongue.

    A king heard of a mute shepherd who lived far in the mountains of his kingdom with his only son, a son whose mother had died in childbirth. This child had never heard a person talk! The king ordered the shepherd boy be brought to court, that he might speak.

    When the boy arrived he was awed by the crowds and the grand hall. The king rose from his throne and bid the boy to come forward and speak. The boy looked around nervously then opened his mouth: "Baah! Baah! Baaa-aaah!"
    Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 04-23-2015 at 02:51 PM.

  20. #69

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    Tom Quayle is known for tuning to all fourths, and he does it for exactly the reason you say, which is to make the guitar more symmetrical for him. Of course, he had to come up with all new chord fingerings, and can't really play bar chords. But being primarily a fusion/jazz guy, he never really has a need to play bar chords anyway, and his overall playing is stellar in my opinion.


  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D
    The top 4 strings on a guitar are my favorite, actually!! That 3rd saves me from terrible stretches many times... These two jazzy voicings are my some of my favs... I cannon reach them nearly as easily on the middle or low string sets...



    ----1----1-------------------------------------
    ----1----1-------------------------------------
    ----3----2-------------------------------------
    ----4----4-------------------------------------
    ----x----x-------------------------------------
    ----x----x-------------------------------------



    The basic min pent blues lick where you partial barre the first two strings while bending the 3rd sting a full step wouldn't exist! What would SRV, Clapton, and Dave Gilmore do??
    yeah and what about the "Its a kind of magic"
    lick
    or "all right now"
    sorry they're not jazz examples

  22. #71
    How about to use 4th tuning in conjunction with the standard tuning (like having one guitar in 4ths and another in standard?

  23. #72

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    I tried maj.3rds for a month or so when I was 30. The greatest advantage(sound wise) was the ease of pianoish 7th chord voicings. Some 3+3+2, 2+3+3, 3+2+3 - piece of cake. Except for a few that were still hard acrobatics and finger-splits I remember. Of course the complete symmetry is cool and very tempting. But I felt I was getting along with standard tuning well enough already and didn't want to trade. I thought that eventually there would have been less variety with all 3rds. Maybe that argument was wrong.. dunno. I searched and found only 1 guy who played jazz with maj.3rd tuning and it wasn't very convincing. I'd sure regret letting go of the standar tuning stuff that i've learned so far so, good bye this thread! ..hopefully

  24. #73

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    UK guitarist Ant Law (Tim Garland) tunes in fourths.

  25. #74

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    Most of the appeal to me with all fourths tuning is the chord melody options. Chord voicings seem a lot more do-able with an all fourths tuning. I love the way Matt Raines uses the all fourths tuning. In jazz being able to make individual NOT BARRE chords is a major plus in a jazz playing. I have yet to try out this tuning, but after reading more about it will consider using it because I like the pros and think cons can actually be a plus for creativity, making new lines, taking you out of your comfort zone and making new lines. Vocabulary seems a lot more accessible with this tuning.

  26. #75

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    I've been lurking for a long time, trying to see how people feel about this tuning. I still remember learning guitar and nobody could explain to me why standard tuning had a major 3 jammed in there to get E to come around again. Having said that, I learned guitar in standard cuz well, everyone does it and barre chords are a neat concept for using six strings at once. Having been very careful about my decision, there were things I noticed about how people felt about it before trying it. The biggest misconception by a mile that i feel people aren't grasping is..

    Learning curve : there is none. Now speaking more towards the standard tuners, there is nothing unfamiliar about perfect fourths tuning, every 4 adjacent string chord you know on standard tuning starting from your 6th string, you'll know in P4 tuning. For example, grabbing the first four notes of a barre chord by finger, and leaving to extra strings out of it (for now) is basic perfect 4th chords in a nutshell. A lot of people give examples where they show you how the chords move across strings with no change, what is not emphasized is how it's a chord shape you definitely already already know, and it's also probably a barre chord minus two strings (which honestly were just repeats). A major seven barre chord makes sense in standard starting from the sixth string because the four strings of perfect fourths allow us to see (or visualize) where the intervals are how weve learned them, and im talking about standard tuning here. The scales are laid out in these shape that render a pattern, and we are 'll following that model all the time, what we as standard players have done is done the work of memorizing the anomaly of the b string, but even after that, b to e is another fourth, so growing up, I'm learning these patterns and they make sense, three notes per string, etc. When approaching the B string my brain goes "ANOMOLY shift everything you expect over one fret!" Then as soon as that bridge is crossed it's back to normal shapes from b to E. Perfect fourths tuning rips that right out of the sandbox and has seriously changed my life as a musician. I was sure there was a good reason for having the high E back up the low E. I used and LOVED barre chords. But I realized that the second I starting playing around with 4ths, I already knew how to use it. Granted i had so.e deeply memorized chord shapes that were strings 5 4 3 2, like C7 chords, or those triangular major 7 chord with the 5th 7th and 3rd in that triagle, I was entirely used to that, but my brain never connected with why exactly the intervals were laid out quite like that. I knew the shape of major as I saw in a E major chord (open) , now E major is the major shape, if your using the 5 after 1 model. if your doing 1 3 5 triads it gets even simpler. The only learning I had to do was shake off my old habits, which wasn't hard because they were born out of need, not knowhow. It's all these original, e major, chords starting from 6th strings that resonated more because they communicate to the player clearly. Things like a C9 chord on strings 5 4 3 2 was now a 7#9 and so sometime I would accidently throw out a very Hendrix dominant, but it was from a habitual standpoint.

    One last thing about barre chords, they're cool and 'll, and I really relied on the to be a fluent player, but you really don't need 6 notes, two are almost always doubled, heck you don't even need 4. I've been playing a rock gig and honestly guitars really need to open up and breathe. You've got bassist who are all over the root, maybe a keyboards controls the color tones, our role as guitarist is to augment the music usually more with rhythm, and thats usually better when you have more specific, purposeful input. Most my rock chords are 3 note and usually leave out the root. Because there's enough notes being sent out into the air. In a solo setting, barre chords are big, great for acoustic because of the xtra volume and all strings active, and remember this all started before electric guitar, before volume would never again become an issue for guitarists. Harmonic richness has 12 string guitars to thank. So basically, I learned in standard, much lime most others but, it was pretty much a deep conversion experience and many many questions that went unanswered were disintegrated, I don't have to learn 4 shapes for what is effectively the same same same voicing (many want to say it would sound different but at only a half step tension change, that's splitting hairs somewhat, now an open c tuning, that's got a big change, but again it's like getting the regularity of piano, without the irregularity of having to look at it arranged in a single key (C/Am). I highly encourage anyone to try it, it's a very quick retune, push the last two strings up and run through some scale shapes across the frets, then drop em when you're dome. I see a ton of people looking at it like some obscure 3rds or 5th or open tuning, and the truth is you're really already in 4ths, and if your comfortable playing at all without NEEDING open chords, then I'm sure it would be an enlightening experience if only to get a very helpful taste of the theory of fretboard layout. Standard tuning is the standard, not open tuning or 3rdz or 5ths, so I feel like the 4th interval is the real sweet spot for fretboard. 5ths is cool but angular, 3rds is cool but a little smashed together, not that it's not okay, just not the happy medium. Anyways give it a shot please, were all learning a lot of redundant materiel, and slower than we need to be.