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  1. #31
    I like Reg's approach as systematic intro...
    it covers all the basic bs all over the fretboard
    it will be a good basis for whatever you do next..

  2. #32
    Segovian scale are but technical scales eleborated for excersising linear runs in classical music and sight-reading.

    Of course you also learn the fretboard when you learn them... so to some degree they can be importnat (anything can be))))
    but I think it's misleading to emphasize its importance for jazz impro (with all respect to forum members who have different opinion).

    Mostly they teach you long scalar runs and embelishments - parts of melodic line (mostly going step-wise) in positions in classical contex.
    They also teach well some abstract fretboard knowledge and sight reading.. you begin to see where each not it.

    But they give almost no relation neither to arps nor to chords

  3. #33
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    My former teacher, Ted Dunbar put much emphasis on fingerboard knowledge.
    One of several approaches that he put forward was the ability to weave multiple scale/arpeggio paths
    connecting all octaves.

    Below are all the A octave locations.
    I know some here like 5 fingering systems, others 7. I trained in the school of too many fingerings.
    While it may sound like a huge memorization project, in truth once the interval patterns are known,
    each pathway is either the same or similar to the last, the variance mostly a consequence of G-B string
    major third tuning.


    ------------|-----------------|-------------|---------------|------------|-------------|--------------|---------------|---------------|
    ------------|-----------------|-------------|---------------|------------|-------------|--------------|---------------|---------------|
    ------------|-----------------|-------------|-----------2---|------------|-------------|----------2--|---------------|---------14---|
    ------------|-----------------|---------7--|----------------|------------|--------7----|-------------|---7-----19---|--7-----------|
    ------------|----------12----|-------------|----------------|---0---12-|--0----------|---0---------|---------------|---------------|
    --5---17--|------5----------|---5---------|----5----------|------------|-------------|--------------|---------------|---------------|


    ------------|----------5-----|-------------|---------------|--------5---|--------17--|---5----17---|--------
    ------10---|-----------------|-------------|---------10---|------------|--10--------|--------------|--------
    ------------|-----------------|---2---14--|---2-----------|--2---------|-------------|--------------|-------
    ---7-------|---7-------------|-------------|---------------|------------|-------------|--------------|-------
    ------------|-----------------|-------------|---------------|------------|-------------|--------------|------
    ------------|-----------------|-------------|---------------|------------|-------------|--------------|---
    Ted Dunbar totally ripped off my idea :-D

    Seriously, it’s validating to know that this approach has been taught by respected educators.

  4. #34
    Ted Dunbar totally ripped off my idea :-D
    In addition to being a fine musician and educator, perhaps he was also a time traveler.
    He did like to read esoteric mystical and philosophical books, who knows.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    In addition to being a fine musician and educator, perhaps he was also a time traveler.
    He did like to read esoteric mystical and philosophical books, who knows.
    This happens to me a lot. I blame the government.

  6. #36
    Yes... anything can work if you work at it long enough.

    The system I use has no holes... because it's designed for the guitar. Scales, arpeggios chords... anything one wants to play is music by itself first... you learn to perform it on the guitar.

    The advantage or the organization I use... it's a 12 fret repeating pattern system.

    Scales, arpeggios chords everything is organized with the same fretboard organization.

    What happens.... I can play anything anywhere, I can play cowboy chord fingering systems... and do so all the time.

    I'm from a classical background... and can play most instrument... Disclaimer, not well, But I can sight read and perform. When I started guitar... the teaching methods were lousy... and when I got into jazz and started playing gigs..... I knew I needed to come up with something... long story short.... I don't need to stare at the guitar to perform etc... I have chops, not as many as I had back in the late 60's and 70's... But I can still cover.

    Most guitarist... can't really sight read, need to stare at their fretboard while playing and can't comp. A lot of these problems are from not having a performance system designed for the guitar. Most memorize sections of the fretboard and then try and mix and match what they have memorized from different players and teachers... It's like trying to speak using words and understandings from ten languages... and actually have a discussion about something new.

    When you take the time to learn the fretboard... you can easily play arpeggios to imply harmony for any melody or melodic line, or play chords below any line with out having to really think. It becomes technically mechanical.

    Different players have different ways of expressing how they play, but generally the good players all want the same thing..... they want to play what they want... not what they're able to because of what the guitar allows them.

    For the OP... the mental organization... personally I have all the scales, arpeggios and chords etc... already together. My mental thoughts and organization could be... I'm soloing over, say the Practical Standards tune this month, Take the A Train, So I might think when playing over the D7#11, (not D7b5, there is a natural 5), anyway the melody not is G#...
    4th position starting on 4th string.......G# A /C / E / G# B............A- ma7 9
    7th position starting on 4th string.......B C / E / G#/ B D ............Cma9#5
    11th position same.........................D E / G# /B / D F#...........E9

    all from A mm scale... I'm probably hearing that D7#11...as a A-9 to D9#11 chord pattern... the point is I'm not mentally thing about how to play what I'm hearing... the scales, arpeggios, chords etc... the physical playing is already worked out.

    I can still use different fingering to create different feels, different articulations... different phrasings .... again the fretboard is already worked out... I don't need to think about that.

    Someone said they practiced Harmonic maj. scales... where to use that scale. Listen to David Hazeltine's Barbados... it's a cool blues tune. It's and Blueslike are two tunes I made charts... and play ocassionally at gigs. Anyway Barbados use Hmaj.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    For the OP... the mental organization... personally I have all the scales, arpeggios and chords etc... already together. My mental thoughts and organization could be... I'm soloing over, say the Practical Standards tune this month, Take the A Train, So I might think when playing over the D7#11, (not D7b5, there is a natural 5), anyway the melody not is G#...
    4th position starting on 4th string.......G# A /C / E / G# B............A- ma7 9
    7th position starting on 4th string.......B C / E / G#/ B D ............Cma9#5
    11th position same.........................D E / G# /B / D F#...........E9]
    Nice. This is just the kind of thing I'm looking for. "Reg vocabulary development" bits. How much is this kind of symmetry a part of your development of vocabulary?

    What does its diatonic equivalent look like? (I mean I would imagine that melodic minor is more symmetrical in the first place and usually geared around VII and III?) For diatonic I would assume similar but using extended diatonic relationships up and down a third? Then on to other chords which are used more to target the chord of the moment?

    Anyway, I'd love the chance to look at anything you have with this kind of thing written down, regardless of the state it's in. I know you want it to be organized, and I can appreciate that. Very interested in your notion of "a performance system designed for guitar". Compelling...

  8. #38
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yes... anything can work if you work at it long enough.

    Right there is the key, select a system and commit to it. You want something that you internalize and you use with little or no thought works for you.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New Jersey
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    Scales Question (Mental Organization)

    Regarding sight reading, the reason many guitarists suck at it isn’t so much that they don’t use whatever system that someone feels is the best but because they don’t practice it. They might practice reading but if they don’t practice sight reading then they will not get good at it and will not learn to assign sounds in their head with what they are seeing on the page before they play it and how to associate it with fingerings and intervals on the fretboard, which is a key element of sight reading. The good news is that you just have to do it, and unlike comping you can practice it most efficiently in your own home. But for some reason people don’t, or they think that half assing is good enough so they don’t push their sight reading to the point that they can read really well the first time through.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    For the OP... the mental organization... personally I have all the scales, arpeggios and chords etc... already together. My mental thoughts and organization could be... I'm soloing over, say the Practical Standards tune this month, Take the A Train, So I might think when playing over the D7#11, (not D7b5, there is a natural 5), anyway the melody not is G#...
    4th position starting on 4th string.......G# A /C / E / G# B............A- ma7 9
    7th position starting on 4th string.......B C / E / G#/ B D ............Cma9#5
    11th position same.........................D E / G# /B / D F#...........E9

    all from A mm scale... I'm probably hearing that D7#11...as a A-9 to D9#11 chord pattern... the point is I'm not mentally thing about how to play what I'm hearing... the scales, arpeggios, chords etc... the physical playing is already worked out.
    Oh wow. G altered version of this lick at 1:10? (Same thing down a half step. Ab Mel minor). THE Reg lick. Very cool to start to see some of this. Really almost have to have some under your fingers first. Very cool.

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