The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    How to practice scales is a common question and always good to checkout how other instruments approach practice. Guitarists especially those who started with rock you mention scales and they get visions of dots on a grid from some set of finger patterns. Trouble is too many learn the dots and not what scale degrees they are or what note names are in a particular position. Which slows them down theory and improv later. So Jeff's video and suggestion making up patterns of intervals and playing in multiple keys is simple way to start getting beyond thinking in dots you can make it as simple or hard as you need. Check it out, also being guitarists don't play the multiple keys in one position don't just slide up and down the neck.

    Jeff is a composer and arranger as well as sax and keyboardist, he has about hundred videos with a lot of good info. Don't limit yourself to just guitar videos music is music no matter what the instrument.


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    While I dig Doc's post and respect etc... This Vid is not for guitar players. Music is Music... but performing on Guitar is different... than other instruments... I also play piano, sax, trombone etc...I'm lousy on all instruments. Until a guitarists gets the fretboard together... when you practice bits and pieces of different melodic exercises... you'll end up hitting walls and developing all kinds of lousy habits.... fingering habits.

    The guitar is a 12 fret repeating pattern and until you choose and get a fingering system together that has an organized system for playing that 12 fret repeating pattern.... your going to get deeper and deeper into dysfunctional fretboard disorder, a very common guitarist syndrome.

    Anyway after you have a fretboard system together... then your ready to begin developing melodic organization.

    A note... generally horn or single note performance musicians aren't really very good guitar teachers.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    While I dig Doc's post and respect etc... This Vid is not for guitar players. Music is Music... but performing on Guitar is different... than other instruments... I also play piano, sax, trombone etc...I'm lousy on all instruments. Until a guitarists gets the fretboard together... when you practice bits and pieces of different melodic exercises... you'll end up hitting walls and developing all kinds of lousy habits.... fingering habits.

    The guitar is a 12 fret repeating pattern and until you choose and get a fingering system together that has an organized system for playing that 12 fret repeating pattern.... your going to get deeper and deeper into dysfunctional fretboard disorder, a very common guitarist syndrome.

    Anyway after you have a fretboard system together... then your ready to begin developing melodic organization.

    A note... generally horn or single note performance musicians aren't really very good guitar teachers.

    I disagree of course and that's cool. I know my playing and knowledge improved a lot from hanging with horns and piano players and seeing how they practiced. I just find the more ways you look at something the more you see.

  5. #4

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    As an ex-sax player, I can attest to to huge problem set difference coming to guitar. Having one and only one place to play a given note in a given octave on a sax or keyboard, like a single string of the guitar, sets up a very specific set of routes to work through.

    Dealing with six of those and adding playing across the strings increases the routes/possibilities to a very high level (infinite?)...

    The Mick Goodrick all scales in all positions approach seems to embrace that infinite head on with a pretty explicit warning that it is a lifetime study.

    The 3 note per string approach Reg advocates or CAGED approach (for the stretch impaired) seems like ways to apply a set of tools to most efficiently get past the infinity problem and allows one to got focused on the matter of the music...

  6. #5

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    Docbop, I get the impression you and I have very similar youtube subscription lists. Jeff Schneider, Janek, Bob Reynolds, Aimee Nolte, etc. Every time you post one of these videos, it's something I've already seen and found useful. I guess all of these people have huge numbers of followers, so it's probably not really that unusual, but it's still interesting that we seem to have such similar youtube viewing habits. Even the non-guitarists.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5

    Dealing with six of those and adding playing across the strings increases the routes/possibilities to a very high level (infinite?)...
    Yes but the same time we can cut corners when wanting to use one learned stuff in other keys. Win some, loose some. Just have to stay positive and think of the the infinity as a good thing.

  8. #7

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    As a long term strategy/goal, infinity is definitely a good thing. As a pragmatic way to developing a working proficiency as a means to shorter term goals? Not so much...

  9. #8

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    Can't help myself, whenever someone goes "how to practice scales" I feel I have to promote this way of doing it:
    prctc.mp3 - Google Drive
    Its a bit clumsy now but you get the idea. Use some ear training program to throw random chords for you, relax and do your best to play the correct scale instantly. Sorry for the echo and reverb, helps me keep calm

  10. #9

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    What is the goal?

    If it's to learn the fingerboard, I'd suggest learning to read and playing everything in two or three octaves.

    If it's to find notes for specific tonal centers or chords, I'd suggest memorizing the notes in the chords and scales you use -- and since you already know how to read, you know where the notes are and you can find them.

    If it's to develop blazing speed for when you need it, you probably don't want to listen to anything I have to say, because I can't do that. But, I would suggest that there's a potential trap therein. You'll end up soloing with whatever you practice -- and running scales doesn't make a good solo. So, you have to be careful to practice scales (if you choose to do that) in ways which don't create unwanted ruts in your muscle memory.

    The way I suggest is a lot of work, but I don't think it's any worse than the usual CAGED approach -- and when you're done, arguably, you have some fundamental skills, like reading, you wouldn't have otherwise.

    Obviously, lots of great players didn't do it my way.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    What is the goal?

    If it's to learn the fingerboard, I'd suggest learning to read and playing everything in two or three octaves.

    If it's to find notes for specific tonal centers or chords, I'd suggest memorizing the notes in the chords and scales you use -- and since you already know how to read, you know where the notes are and you can find them.

    If it's to develop blazing speed for when you need it, you probably don't want to listen to anything I have to say, because I can't do that. But, I would suggest that there's a potential trap therein. You'll end up soloing with whatever you practice -- and running scales doesn't make a good solo. So, you have to be careful to practice scales (if you choose to do that) in ways which don't create unwanted ruts in your muscle memory.

    The way I suggest is a lot of work, but I don't think it's any worse than the usual CAGED approach -- and when you're done, arguably, you have some fundamental skills, like reading, you wouldn't have otherwise.

    Obviously, lots of great players didn't do it my way.

    I look at exercises like this as teaching knowing scale spellings, knowing where those intervals are in fingerings, and also as note relationships on the fretboard. It also helps with ear training and finger relationship. If played with a freeze pedal similar device more ear training getting sound and feel of those intervals drilled in. Then getting used to changing keys and repeating a motif. So take the basic Coltrane 1,2,3,5 and start moving that thru the cycle in one position can teach a lot add rhythm loop and fretboard, basic theory, and ear are all getting a workout, so I don't see this as a sax exercise but a improv exercise. As you start making up more exotic interval combination it really is a mind and instrument workout. At least that's how I see it.

  12. #11

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    Hmmm... I guess I'm missing some history here or am not expressing something clearly.

    For me using the CAGED fingering is no substitute for reading or knowing the note names/locations on the fingerboard or their numbers/roles in the scale. It just is a sensible way to approach the layout of a given key on the fingerboard. Five basic patterns with the root on the lower octave fingered with either the second or fourth fingers on the lower E, A or D strings. Using this basic layout any pattern from 3rds, 4ths etc., Coltrane 1,2,3,5 or other digital patterns can be deployed and accidentals can be played with stretches or slides.

    Or the random scale degrees chosen as in the video Docbop kindly brought to our attention at the top of the thread.

    For someone beginning guitar this seems like a practical and expeditious methodology.

    Goodrick's 12 scales, all modes etc in a single position or knowing all the notes on the finger board and based on the rule for the desired scale in the moment are fine aspirational goals.

    But life is short and I want to actually play some music here...

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I look at exercises like this as teaching knowing scale spellings, knowing where those intervals are in fingerings, and also as note relationships on the fretboard. It also helps with ear training and finger relationship. If played with a freeze pedal similar device more ear training getting sound and feel of those intervals drilled in. Then getting used to changing keys and repeating a motif. So take the basic Coltrane 1,2,3,5 and start moving that thru the cycle in one position can teach a lot add rhythm loop and fretboard, basic theory, and ear are all getting a workout, so I don't see this as a sax exercise but a improv exercise. As you start making up more exotic interval combination it really is a mind and instrument workout. At least that's how I see it.
    Good point with regard to interval/finger relationship issue.

    You have to get to the point where you can play a note, think of the next one, and play that one too.
    Which is the same as saying you have to be able to play a melody starting, I think, on any note/finger/fret, without mistakes (or at least without too many). That's a fundamental goal for an aspiring improviser. Scales can help with that, although I think that reading/transcribing may achieve the goal and without needing to worry about the scale-ruts (a surmountable problem, but worth thinking about).

  14. #13

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    I guess as a guitarist... you will get somewhere, sometime. Or maybe just have a cool road trip, without really being aware of where your going. It really doesn't matter or really mean much in the bigger perspective.

    But if one wants to become somewhat skilled on their instrument...there are basic steps for reaching that goal.

    Scales and organized structural exercises.... working with patterns etc... are all part of those basic steps. Just as going through the same process with arpeggios. Developing comping skills, again using same process... And yes Sight reading is also a basic skill.

    But all these skills need to be developed with a fingering system that works... the more one puts together bits and pieces of this and that from different players and teachers... without having an organized fretboard system to realize all the basic skills. Your going to have huge gaps and holes in your performance skills.

    You'll end up having to rehearse or practice everything you play... which in it's self is not bad or wrong. But if you want to play in a jazz style at some level of proficiency... By that I mean, being able to show up at a gig or sitting in with friends, or even just playing with friends at some casual setting...and performing music you don't know etc... you need to have basic technical skills on your guitar, which involves fretboard and fingering organization.

    Obviously... you can still play without, but it's much easier and generally more fun when you do.

    And contrary to popular belief... it doesn't take that much time.

    So Doc... what do we disagree on. Is it just you like the vid. or the concept or application. I'm assuming you already have your fretboard together... and appreciate single line players perspectives for developing melodic relationships and maybe developing them during improv or even compositionally. Although there are standard melodic cycles and organized approaches for melodic relationships... that are not random, right... patterns that go through cycles and repeat. Starting on different degrees of harmonic references... there are also more than one level of harmonic organization that can also be applied to those cycles... would depend on one's skill levels.

    My basic point is any and all of these practice studies need to have a Guitar fretboard organization system to actually be understandable when learning. Which most guitarist don't have together.

  15. #14

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    Reg -

    I think you're right. I've never consciously tried to work out a fretboard organisational system but I know from years of doing it that subliminally I 'see' one. I know where the scales are, where the chords are, where the relationships are, etc. Studying it consciously may have speeded up that process, who knows?

    Can I go on for a bit? I think it's much the same as going into a room, let's say the kitchen. You know where the stuff is, where the cupboards are, how to grab what you want, how to use it. You don't have to think about it, you can chat to someone or listen to the radio while you're doing it... it's sorted out in your brain and you just do it.

    I think there are definite similarities between that and guitar playing. However, guitar playing takes choice. There's not much choice when you want to find a spoon or a pan but there is with doing an impromptu solo. But if you know where and how to find the tools first it's a lot easier.

  16. #15
    Cycling exercises through all keys/positions like the op mentions has always been recommended. Good practice to be sure, but probably assumes you have basics together, even if you're NOT a guitarist.

    Actually saves a lot of time and frustration long-term to learn fretboard on the front end. I tried the "shortcut" way of shipping this for a long time. Really a long cut.

  17. #16

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    So Reg, (drum roll please...) is there a published source for such a Guitar fretboard and fingering organization? That is what I have been trying to assemble on my own. It would be nice to know if someone actually invented that wheel in a form that works for the stretch challenged...

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    So Reg, (drum roll please...) is there a published source for such a Guitar fretboard and fingering organization? That is what I have been trying to assemble on my own. It would be nice to know if someone actually invented that wheel in a form that works for the stretch challenged...
    I guess I don't know what "fretboard and fingering organization" means. Scales/modes all over? Specific fingerings for them? And then, when you're soloing, you play those fingerings? Forgive me, I'm not trying to be challenging or dense, but I've never thought about soloing this way, except for some arpeggios that I throw in if I can't actually handle the tempo thoughtfully.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    So Reg, (drum roll please...) is there a published source for such a Guitar fretboard and fingering organization? That is what I have been trying to assemble on my own. It would be nice to know if someone actually invented that wheel in a form that works for the stretch challenged...
    Scale fingerings, live at the speed of jazz

    Technique-scales.


    Technique studies


    Left hand technique:


    Regarding stretches, I have pretty small hands . The last link is pretty important.

  20. #19

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    Just a random thought. Since the topic is "how to 2 practice scales" the correct answer cannot be "do this and that". Must think about how do you want to use them scales in the real world. What happens in the real world? Practice that...

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    Just a random thought. Since the topic is "how to 2 practice scales" the correct answer cannot be "do this and that". Must think about how do you want to use them scales in the real world. What happens in the real world? Practice that...
    I understand what you're saying, but I also think that a great many guitarists run into walls when trying to do simple exercises like the one in the OP. Basically have to work everything out as you go. Figure it out in each position one bit at a time. that was certainly me, when I started looking at playing some Jazz.

    Horn players just aren't doing that at a basic level. Not figuring out the basics of where notes are ..... or simply how to finger things.

    I think the point about having basics together is a valid one.

  22. #21

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    I finally watched the OP's video. I should have watched it before.

    I like his idea. His way, you have to know your scales and intervals. If you know the fingerboard of the guitar and you know the scales/intervals you can do what he suggests. And, if you don't know them, his ideas can form the basis of custom exercises to drill yourself until they become automatic.

    I also wondered about doing it with the chromatic scale with 12 different roots. Then, the intervals can be anything -- and you learn all the extensions too.

    Last point: I love playing with EWI. I think EWI and guitar blend really well.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Scale fingerings, live at the speed of jazz

    Technique-scales. snip...

    Technique studies snip...

    Left hand technique: snip...

    Regarding stretches, I have pretty small hands . The last link is pretty important.
    So if I understand you correctly these videos seem to be suggesting yet a third approach. You have specific fingerings for each mode and place them on the fingerboard based on root notes on the 6th string in the key of the moment you are playing.

    Interesting.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    So if I understand you correctly these videos seem to be suggesting yet a third approach. You have specific fingerings for each mode and place them on the fingerboard based on root notes on the 6th string in the key of the moment you are playing.

    Interesting.
    I guess I have a basic question about how others do this.

    You learn 5 fingerings for major scales, per CAGED.

    Then, 5 fingerings for each of the modes which is a total of 35 fingerings.

    Then, another 35 fingerings for melodic minor.

    And, another 35 ... for Hminor, Hmajor and whichever other scales you use.

    And, then, you have to practice them in a bunch of different ways, so you don't have to always start from the root. And, you have to practice connecting them so you can move up or down to get lower or higher notes.
    And you have to be able to play them in 12 keys.

    Is that what people typically do?

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I guess I have a basic question about how others do this.

    You learn 5 fingerings for major scales, per CAGED.

    Then, 5 fingerings for each of the modes which is a total of 35 fingerings.

    Then, another 35 fingerings for melodic minor.

    And, another 35 ... for Hminor, Hmajor and whichever other scales you use.

    And, then, you have to practice them in a bunch of different ways, so you don't have to always start from the root. And, you have to practice connecting them so you can move up or down to get lower or higher notes.
    And you have to be able to play them in 12 keys.

    Is that what people typically do?
    Modes are fingered the same as the parent scale though. So modes are the same five "fingerings" you already know from the parent scale etc. The distinction is musical, not physical fingering.

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by guido5
    So if I understand you correctly these videos seem to be suggesting yet a third approach. You have specific fingerings for each mode and place them on the fingerboard based on root notes on the 6th string in the key of the moment you are playing.

    Interesting.
    I'm not following. What are the other two we're talking about?